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Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

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Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#141

Post by caseysoftware »

username90 wrote: post #116
caseysoftware wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope, doesn't look like it. Google is screwing over tons of people here and obviously they're not alone. Why do we "trust" them again?

Training unskilled workers and giving them normal professional worker wages is screwing them over how? It isn't like they would be better off at mcdonalds.

Teaching them skills and laying them off without cause is screwing them over. If you also consider that the skills they teach aren't enough to get them to the next level, it's worse.

This is covered in great detail in the article.

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#142

Post by coryking »

danaris wrote: post #63
dannyw wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people, like the grandparent or me, don't want to be employees.

And it's fine to be a contractor—as long as that's genuinely and meaningfully what you are. If you're contracting out your services to only one company, and they have primary say over when and how you work[1], then that's not a genuine "contractor" relationship; you're an employee that they're taking advantage of by paying less and not providing benefits to. If you really do want to be a contractor , who sells their…

The IRS has very clear guidelines on the difference between contractor and employee:

https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employe...

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#143

Post by syshum »

SiempreViernes wrote: post #137
syshum wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should be very clear, I oppose government mandated lock downs.

What do you think about defence spending?

That is more complicated, but I take a traditionally libertarian view, opposing world policing actual defense is acceptable, actual defense being something akin to a slightly more powerful coast guard.

But going item by item on the list of government actions would be rather pointless, politically I fall somewhere between Anarcho-Capitalism and Geo-Libertarianism

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#144

Post by enragedcacti »

cloche wrote: post #26

I know someone who works as a contractor for Google (not through Modis). It's quite odd. They had to go through a lot of Google specified training, they only work for Google, their manager is someone from Google, the computer was supplied from Google, they're doing work that is directed by Google, they receive performance feedback from Google. But at the day, they're officially employed by this vendor company. I just…

There are laws against providing different tiers for some benefits (I'm pretty certain healthcare is one). So if Google were to hire them, it has to decide if its worth lowering the standard of healthcare for their six-figure engineers or giving these datacenter employees a really expensive healthcare plan.

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#145

Post by jasonwatkinspdx »

caseysoftware wrote: post #37
donkeyd wrote: post #12

> Love the good pay. > It pays relatively well ($15 per hour for most contract workers). How is that relatively well? Compared to McDonald's employees, probably. Compared to other actual technical jobs, like electrician, I can't imagine. Compared to Google devs, not at all. Working 40 hours a week with no vacation that's about 31k. Being a contractor means no sick leave, vacation days, pension, insurance, etc. The US…

> Compared to McDonald's employees, probably. Compared to other actual technical jobs, like electrician, I can't imagine. When someone has few work skills - as noted in the article - do they more closely resemble a McDonald's employee or an electrician? Yes, people with low/no skills and little/no experience tend to start in crap roles. Some people will not further their skills, abilities, or knowledge and stay there…

Empirical evidence for the idea that raising the minimum wage in the US will lead to unemployment is quite weak. Those arguments may kick in at some point, but it's pretty clear we're way under the price level that would do that.

You're using some common rhetoric to reframe this entirely as one of personal volition. Just be like Ms Wait and pull yourself up the ladder. This is a form of the just world delusion, and ignores all the complex ways poverty can be a trap, or how people working at this end of the labor market are basically one roll of the dice away from financial ruin due to illness, car accident, etc.

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#146

Post by ahelwer »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #135
coryking wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> health insurance and how it's tied to employment Without getting too political, I really feel like untying health insurance from employment would transform the labor market and encourage far more entrepreneurial endeavors. People could take more risks if they didn't have to worry about losing healthcare coverage. There are obvious tradeoffs involved, but I really never see this aspect considered in public debate. M…

> There are obvious tradeoffs involved, but I really never see this aspect considered in public debate. It was a big aspect in 2009/2010 when ACA was being passed. The reason people want insurance tied to employment is because they benefit from lower premiums because their risk pool experiences less healthcare costs than the general public. If everyone was dumped into one marketplace and risk pool, then the insurance…

Why continue to allow the existence of these various parasitic middlemen health insurance companies with their redundant bureaucracies and the N x N billing problems, networks, etc. they introduce?

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#147

Post by lotsofpulp »

dx034 wrote: post #40
yanderekko wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. It's an awkward situation. A lot of the data engineers I work with are CWs, and under the circumstances of normal interaction they're pretty much indistinguishable from FTEs. But there are all sorts of compliance reasons for why you aren't supposed to treat them as real "team members" with all the attendant perks and privileges. Many ICs will not even realize that their colleagues are CWs since it's not the defa…

Why do you have to give them a huge boost in comp? There's no union at Google, they can pay whatever they see fit. They could just hire them at lower salaries but that'd destroy the image that anyone working at a FAANG makes at least $250k/yr.

A W-2 employee has to be offered all the same benefits as other employees to pass non discrimination testing to keep all those other benefits tax free. W-2 employees also increase unemployment insurance premiums, as well as be liabilities when it comes time to downsize.

I doubt it has anything to do with image.

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#148

Post by lotsofpulp »

username90 wrote: post #71
pydry wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except they actually have managers and if they've been there two years it's easy as pie to just hire them. This is Google cheaping out on medical insurance and PTO.

If Google wanted to be cheap they could just hire them and pay them less, but they don't.

In order to keep benefits tax free, companies have to make them lucrative enough for lower paid employees such that they pass non discrimination testing. It’s not a trivial expense even if the wage is lower, the total compensation cost can be higher.

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#149

Post by coryking »

usr1106 wrote: post #122
fernandotakai wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Or they could hire them as employees. some people don't want to be employees, they want to be contractors.

> some people don't want to be employees, they want to be contractors. Highly educated, well-paid people much more likely than people doing physical jobs. If you can negotiate your rates, your projects and can skip some corporate bullshit that fits some people. With a physical job where the wage is hardly enough until next pay day, I doubt that is a preferred option for many.

I've done the 1099 thing before. I had an accountant and my own LLC. I made sure to have a separate bank account that I dumped 30% of my billable time into. Each tax season I'd cut a giant check to the IRS.

I mean no disrespect to the "gig economy" people, but 1099 requires a lot of discipline. Most of them probably don't need to pay estimated taxes and instead will be cutting giant checks to the IRS each year. It requires a hell of a lot of discipline to stare at thousands of dollars of money sitting in your own bank account knowing you cannot spend that no matter what--that is uncle sam's money.

I wonder how many gig economy people wind up owing the IRS a ton of money. Especially when they have to pay self-employment tax on top of normal tax.

Plus I bet very good money 99% of them aren't paying state or municipal taxes. As a 1099 I had to pay Washington State B&O tax every year as well as some token amount to Seattle.

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#150

Post by TheCoelacanth »

enragedcacti wrote: post #144
cloche wrote: post #26

I know someone who works as a contractor for Google (not through Modis). It's quite odd. They had to go through a lot of Google specified training, they only work for Google, their manager is someone from Google, the computer was supplied from Google, they're doing work that is directed by Google, they receive performance feedback from Google. But at the day, they're officially employed by this vendor company. I just…

There are laws against providing different tiers for some benefits (I'm pretty certain healthcare is one). So if Google were to hire them, it has to decide if its worth lowering the standard of healthcare for their six-figure engineers or giving these datacenter employees a really expensive healthcare plan.

So yet another case of the US's brain-dead healthcare system ruining everything.

We desperately need to sever the link between employers and healthcare.

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