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Java Is Underhyped

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Re: Java Is Underhyped

#141

Post by disgruntledphd2 »

lenkite wrote: post #111
vinceguidry wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IntelliJ is nice, don't get me wrong. You can't really get a nice (for 2020) experience out of Java without it, because it's an absolute slog of a language. Just... so... much... ... ... ... everything. IntelliJ cuts through all that. You can get a nice for 2005 experience with Eclipse. Without an IDE, Java really falls down. Java is a phenomenal piece of kit, the amount of engineering that went into the JVM is insan…

> Without an IDE, Java really falls down. VSC has a pretty good Java experience.

But doesn't it use the eclipse compiler?

Certainly the emacs mode does: https://projects.eclipse.org/projects/eclipse.jdt.ls

Re: Java Is Underhyped

#142

Post by scaladev »

donatj wrote: post #124
nonbirithm wrote: post #110

The amount of vitriol Java receives in the game development space is rather strong. However, whenever people dismiss Java as being a bad language, I can't help but think of Minecraft. Yes, it's one of the few mainstream titles where Java has been successfully applied, but I believe Minecraft's success was specifically because it was written in Java. With no JVM, there would have been no Minecraft mods at the level of…

> For the people who say that Minecraft should have been written in C++ […] there's Bedrock Edition. Nobody I know cares about it enough to play it. Been playing for just under ten years, everyone I know plays Bedrock these days. I built and manage a very popular tool / Minecraft community and while I don’t have actual numbers, my general sense is the majority of players run either console or mobile Minecraft - all o…

>I don’t know why you wouldn’t run Bedrock

Because not everybody runs Windows? I don't consider mobile and console platforms as gaming, but that's just my biases.

Re: Java Is Underhyped

#144

Post by thrower123 »

shock wrote: post #131
thrower123 wrote: post #122

Pretty much anything general purpose that I might want to use Java for, I can use C# instead, and I like it better. Cross platform support used to be the trump for Java, but DotNetCore/5 works on Linux and has nearly everything ported over now.

What IDEs exist for Linux that are free and on par with Eclipse for Java?

I don't much like Eclipse, but it's a fair point.

Rider is really good, better than Visual Studio in most respects even, but it does cost about $100/year for a personal license. There are some programs JetBrains offers for free licenses though.

VS Code is also an option, albeit much less powerful.

Re: Java Is Underhyped

#145

Post by Twirrim »

thiht wrote: post #112

> Java is fun to write, productive What the hell? I don't think we have the same definition for any of these words. I know Java has changed quite a bit since Java 8 (Java 9 being the last version I used professionally before switching completely to Go), but I just can't write Java again, it's physical. When I want to try a new Java feature and think about writing the scaffolding code, my stomach actually hurts. Not t…

> Not to mention the pain point that it still is to install and configure a JDK, and make it work properly with Intellij, why is it still so complicated?

I used to work for a company that had about 100 different Java web applications running, each with their own JDK. It was _trivial_ to set up and maintain. Was it wasteful? Sure. I shipped a JDK with each application. Was it hard to automate? No. Basic deployment automation made it trivial. The JDK was just an application artifact alongside the JAR file, and the application starting script set JAVA_HOME pointing to it for that process.

IntelliJ makes it trivial to maintain a project specific JDK. You just add the location of your JDKs to it (IIRC it can even auto-populate the list), and then choose the JDK from a simple menu within the IDE.

Re: Java Is Underhyped

#146

Post by BiteCode_dev »

wwn_se wrote: post #136
BiteCode_dev wrote: post #119

For my use cases, Java has all the wrong compromises: - not high level enough to compete with Python/Ruby/JS/PHP, etc - not low level enough to compete with Rust/D/Nim/Zig - not specialized enough to compete with Erlang/R/Go/Julia - not opinionated enough to compete with Lisp/Haskell So why use Java ? It's good, it's fast, it's productive, it's well supported, battle tested and documented for decades with a huge pool…

Python projects that start to grow has a tendency to become hard to manage in a way that I have not seen in Java at all. Java is like you say not the greatest at anything but it is also not the worst at anything. Its great for projects where the you don't know what you should optimize for or don't care. If java is to boring maybe kotlin is the way to go. I really like kotlin and in my personal experience the only dow…

I've seen plenty of even small Java projects becoming hard to manage as well. The design pattern hell is a thing.

You know the joke: a dev has a problem, uses Java, and now has a ProblemFactory :)

Not to say Java is not a great language for big projects, it certainly is well equipped for that, especially because it has superb tooling available on the market.

But I've done plenty of big projects in Python, some ended badly, some ended great. Not to mentions dropbox, youtube and instagram are testaments to Python can be used in large projects.

So I don't think Python is unsuitable for big sized projects. You certainly do have to worry about different problems than in Java, especially for projects that started without type hints. In my experience though, you reach less architecture dead ends with Python because the language is so flexible that a bad decision early on can easily be transformed or worked around even very late in the project without much fuzz.

So I don't use "size of the project" in my consideration to not user Python/Go/Rust/etc over Java.

Re: Java Is Underhyped

#147

Post by severino »

eitland wrote: post #96
mjevans wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another reason to avoid: Oracle owns Java. This automatically puts Java on my list of tools I'd prefer to avoid for new serious projects. (Legacy projects; if it's working and it isn't an issue yet, maintenance.)

Use OpenJDK! Never touch anything from Oracle. Then you will be fine. Oracle is the company that wants you to buy a license for your MariaDB(!) instance running on a small AWS instance! Yep, that happened. Source: have worked with Java for years, three of those around Oracle products.

> Use OpenJDK! Never touch anything from Oracle.

But OpenJDK is Oracle's. They are the primary contributors to the project, and they really made it 100% open-source.

Re: Java Is Underhyped

#149

Post by _pmf_ »

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #126
Nursie wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Python is generally less performant. Go has a smaller ecosystem. IMHO, YMMV etc.

Yes, but that's my point. If I don't need performance, Python is ok. If I do, I won't go Java, I will choose something that is built for performance. Python is good enough for 99% of my performances need. The last 1%, jumping to java is not a big difference, I'll use rust or go. I won't use go for the ecosystem, but it's unique characteristics: easy concurrency, dead simple binary production. Java can't beat that. IF…

> The last 1%, jumping to java is not a big difference

That's where you're wrong, kiddo.

Re: Java Is Underhyped

#150

Post by Twirrim »

scaladev wrote: post #142
donatj wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For the people who say that Minecraft should have been written in C++ […] there's Bedrock Edition. Nobody I know cares about it enough to play it. Been playing for just under ten years, everyone I know plays Bedrock these days. I built and manage a very popular tool / Minecraft community and while I don’t have actual numbers, my general sense is the majority of players run either console or mobile Minecraft - all o…

>I don’t know why you wouldn’t run Bedrock Because not everybody runs Windows? I don't consider mobile and console platforms as gaming, but that's just my biases.

> Because not everybody runs Windows? I don't consider mobile and console platforms as gaming, but that's just my biases.

Most PC gamers use Windows, consoles or devices. The non-Windows gaming market is very small.

While I prefer Java edition, my kid much prefers Bedrock, because it has the main killer feature of being able to share a world directly with friends. Anyone that's an XBox Live friend can see when they're playing on-line, and join the world. No need to set up a realm, run my own server online somewhere, or punch a hole through the firewall to the minecraft server at home etc.

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