MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle • Hacker News Board

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#141

Post by 908B64B197 » Tue, Apr 06, 2021, 7:30 PM UTC

sitkack wrote: post #86

rudderz wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get why students need to be apply to be accepted. Why can't everyone go to MIT? Is there a scarcity on chalk boards, shitty chairs and cinder blocks?

How about kids test in? They can take classes online, if they perform well enough, they get to attend in person, everyone else can bang on the gates via a MOOC. Why not take 1 or 2 university classes your junior and senior year of HS?

> Why not take 1 or 2 university classes your junior and senior year of HS?

Wasn't this the point of AP classes?

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#142

Post by scarmig » Tue, Apr 06, 2021, 7:30 PM UTC

pdonis wrote: post #122

threatofrain wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not really, it's a dumping ground of university assets.

Um, video lectures, lecture notes, problem sets, solutions, and references to textbooks is more than just "a dumping ground". When I look at what's available on OCW for the classes I took when I was at MIT, everything that I got any learning value from is there.

The biggest part of any "elite" university is being surrounded by similarly high achieving people, to learn from and be motivated by. Attending any random state college gives you theoretical access to all the non-human resources (except labs) that the typical MIT undergraduate will access.

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#143

Post by _7hzo » Tue, Apr 06, 2021, 7:31 PM UTC

Anecdotal evidence, but I did well on the SAT and spent very little money. I bought a few books, but easily could have pirated them online (like I did for all of my AP tests previously).

I think the SAT is likely more egalitarian than extracurriculars, although I cannot comment on its effectiveness as an indicator for college performance.

Someone who has to work after high school to support their family would not have the time or energy to play sports, do choir, run clubs, etc. But they could go to the library, pirate some books, print out the pages and practice 20 minutes a day starting 10-12 months ahead of time. It would be more difficult, of course, but I still think studying for a test is easier and cheaper than having extensive extracurriculars.

Anecdotally, I've also always heard SAT test prep is a waste of money.

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#144

Post by rychco » Tue, Apr 06, 2021, 7:34 PM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #137

rychco wrote: post #84

Most people have already mentioned that this change could result in discrimination, but I think it's also extremely important to note that these high school students are extremely overworked. If a student is a top-tier applicant that has good grades, plays a sport, participates in a club or two, volunteers, & has a part-time job, they are easily working a minimum of 60+ hours per week. There is absolutely no way this…

Selecting for students who have a track record of success in spite of 60-hours of time being "spoken for" is a not unreasonable selection process for students who will succeed at MIT.

The 60h/week figure is what I observed ~8 years ago for my peers to be competitive for our state university that was not MIT or an Ivy. My point is that I think students are being overworked because the requirements are too subjective. A student has to be involved in everything on top of having great grades and scores because the SAT/ACT was the only thing that was even close to being an objective requirement.

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#145

Post by 908B64B197 » Tue, Apr 06, 2021, 7:35 PM UTC

pdonis wrote: post #96

rudderz wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get why students need to be apply to be accepted. Why can't everyone go to MIT? Is there a scarcity on chalk boards, shitty chairs and cinder blocks?

> Why can't everyone go to MIT? Everyone can, online. All of MIT's course content is available for free online: https://ocw.mit.edu/index.htm

There's more to a degree than just the coursework.

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#146

Post by Kranar » Tue, Apr 06, 2021, 7:35 PM UTC

bryanlarsen wrote: post #89

rudderz wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get why students need to be apply to be accepted. Why can't everyone go to MIT? Is there a scarcity on chalk boards, shitty chairs and cinder blocks?

Given the massive endowments that MIT & the Ivy's are sitting on, it's borderline criminal that they're so selective IMO.

Their massive endowment comes from being selective. Seeing where someone graduated from is an excellent tool that companies use to filter out candidates and that filter is of genuine value to the economy. Hiring people is very very risky, especially new grads. Imagine having to sift through 1000s of potential candidates and not having indicators such as whether they graduated, where they graduated from, how well they did compared to their peers, etc...

It would result in massive inefficiencies and major risks.

With few exception (medical school, some very specialized research), you do not go to MIT if what you genuinely and strictly want is a good education. There is nothing that an undergrad is going to learn at MIT that can't be learned online. There's nothing secretive that MIT teaches that only MIT grads could possibly know about. There is no proprietary research or knowledge that MIT teaches to its students that isn't well established and that other colleges don't have access to. And finally, MIT and most other Ivy league schools and schools in general don't have any kind of specialty when it comes to lecturing or any kind of area of expertise on delivering educational material in any kind of special way; on the contrary most professors are pretty bad at teaching and teaching is not their area of expertise. The textbooks, the lectures, heck even the tests and assignments, are all available for anyone to learn from if they so choose.

You go to MIT because it puts you ahead of well over 95% of the population in virtually every future aspect of your career.

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#147

Post by rychco » Tue, Apr 06, 2021, 7:37 PM UTC

helen___keller wrote: post #134

rychco wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure.” If your suggested measures were considered, they would quickly become targets & add to the already insane workload that high school students must put up with in order to be considered competitive applicants. It's unfortunately not a scenario where you can say 'Pick one of (a) through (d)', because it will quickly become all of (a) through (d) .

> they would quickly become targets This is already the case. My list is meant to be descriptive, not prescriptive nor aspirational

> This is already the case. My list is meant to be descriptive, not prescriptive nor aspirational

I misunderstood the intent of the list, I agree with you.

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#148

Post by ericd » Tue, Apr 06, 2021, 7:37 PM UTC

thaumasiotes wrote: post #105

ericd wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ha are they back to 1600? When did they get rid of writing? Sure, yes, maybe bribery or fraud could get you there. Have there been reported cases?

1600 is the high score again as of 2016. Yes, there have been various reported cases of fraud on the SAT. The most prominent two that come to mind are the recent college admissions scandal, in which strategies included both (1) having a substitute take the SAT in place of the student and (2) bribing the test proctor, and the year in which every test result from South Korea was canceled due to widespread cheating. htt…

Wow, TIL, thanks!

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#149

Post by scarmig » Tue, Apr 06, 2021, 7:39 PM UTC

floren wrote: post #64

ericmay wrote: post #36

One question on my mind (as someone who has a master's degree and engineering degree and has never taken the ACT/SAT) is how kids will go about showing pure intellectual merit? Like let's say you grow up ok but you can't really afford to join the ski club or for a tutor and maybe you work in the evenings but you crush the SAT/ACT because you're incredibly intelligent. How will universities like MIT take that into acc…

I did well on the SAT and ACT, but one problem is that it's just not enough. Parents who shove their kids into piano and tennis lessons since age 4, push them to run for student government and take petitions to the city council, whatever, those parents are also going to make their kids spend every evening studying for the SAT. They've also had tutors when they need it. How does Harvard tell the difference between "th…

One interesting idea: the College Board could add in a class of problems requiring a particular novel, non-obvious approach that are effectively poison pills. Students who take the SAT prep courses are drilled on how to answer them, while students who take the test naively are bound to answer them incorrectly. It doesn't affect the actual score reported to the student. But when the score is reported to universities, a shadow score that represents likelihood that the student received extensive prep is also reported, which gives that kind of context.

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#150

Post by rychco » Tue, Apr 06, 2021, 7:44 PM UTC

alistairSH wrote: post #139

rychco wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure.” If your suggested measures were considered, they would quickly become targets & add to the already insane workload that high school students must put up with in order to be considered competitive applicants. It's unfortunately not a scenario where you can say 'Pick one of (a) through (d)', because it will quickly become all of (a) through (d) .

Applicants to top universities are already doing (a) through (d), so removing the SAT should help - it's one less thing to worry about. If the AP/IB exams are just as good a proxy for "college aptitude", we should just us those, right?

While I agree in theory that AP/IB exams could be used instead of SAT/ACT, they are unfortunately not available at all schools. Students nowadays are already occasionally forced to travel to different schools in their area in order to take as many AP/IB classes as possible.

Additionally, removing any of the objective requirements forces students to add even more activities to their existing laundry list of extracurriculars in order to stand out. I don't have any evidence, but I fear that students will have to work even harder & spend even more hours outside the classroom just to stand out without SAT/ACT scores. Students are massively overworked as it is.