Advice From An Old Programmer
141–150 of 230 posts
Re: Advice From An Old Programmer
#142People who can code in the world of technology companies are a dime a dozen and get no respect. People who can code in biology, medicine, government, sociology, physics, history, and mathematics are respected and can do amazing things to advance those disciplines. This is a nice sentiment but as someone who has been a programmer for biology and medical research, it's not true. It's just like any other mediocre progra…
Hmm, you really got a problem with this don't you? http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/i1j67/advice_fr... There you are on reddit, saying the same thing, and ignoring the fact that you're confounding your experience as a Biology postdoc with you use of code. Hopefully, as a scientist you know what confounding is. :-) P.S. I'm the author. EDIT: point at the exact comment.
Re: Advice From An Old Programmer
#143My guess is that I've been coding for longer than Zed, and I don't remember _ever_ thinking it was boring, and a lot of the stuff he says might be true for Zed, it sure as hell isn't true for the rest of us: "Programming as a profession is only moderately interesting. It can be a good job, but if you want to make about the same money and be happier, you could actually just go run a fast food joint." If this is actual…
Sure, he has a fairly unapologetic and somewhat confrontational nature (much like DHH) that seem to irk people, but (also like DHH) his walk matches or exceeds his talk.
Re: Advice From An Old Programmer
#144That may be a bit exaggerated, but...
>People who can code in biology, medicine, government, sociology, physics, history, and mathematics are respected and can do amazing things to advance those disciplines.
This is quite true. I'm involved a bit with a few circles outside the whole web-tech sphere, and it's quite different. Someone who understands the web and technology can create things that others cannot. Being involved in a certain field gives you knowledge and social contacts in the field. Put those together, and the business ideas you can come up with can be ones that can really change things.
Re: Advice From An Old Programmer
#145Coding and software engineering are not the same knowledge. Coding is just a small part of the big discipline. The difference between software engineer and a coder with even years of practice is the same as between a poet and a full-time typist.
Memorizing syntax (and may be even some standard idioms) of 20 different languages doesn't make you a software engineer, and of course, you can code something after a day to week of practice, but it will be a mere amateur coding, not a programming.
Of course, such kind of coders are dozen for a dime, because having a dictionary doesn't make you a translator or even speaker of the any human language. After memorizing some basic words and you can use some very basic vocabulary and copied sentences from a phrasebook, but you cannot read even a news paper, let alone a non-fiction or a scientific book. You cannot even watch a TV - they're speaking too fast.
The idea behind reading other people's code is not about finding familiar syntax or code blocks, or even use Ctrl-C, Ctrl-V it is about appreciating and understanding the ideas which leads to this exact code and not the other, why this and not that, which is impossible without engineering knowledge.
No amount of memorized syntax can compensate the lack of practice. You may learn the syntax of 50 programming languages, it is not a substitute for years of practice with at least one of them.
Memorizing standard idioms also does not make you a programmer. You should understand why there idioms emerge and remain here, which ideas are behind them, which technology, what are advantages and disadvantages. This knowledge makes you a software engineer, and this knowledge will give you respect of others.
Producing yet another python tutorial, without ever realizing that keeping it short, full of idiomatic examples, and ability to grasp the big picture in an couple of hours is a huge advantage of the classic tutorial http://docs.python.org/py3k/tutorial/ doesn't make you a teacher of humanity.
And of course, language matters. just look at this http://hyperpolyglot.org/scripting and try to appreciate the differences in readability and self-explanatory between PHP and Python/Ruby. Try to grasp why carefully chosen syntax of Python/Ruby is different from chaotic approach of PHP. Unfortunately we can't see the bloatedness of Java syntax on the same page.
Re: Advice From An Old Programmer
#146Re: Advice From An Old Programmer
#147Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yeah, I'd generalize the advice to: don't be a programmer, be a domain expert who happens to write good code. I think that's still extremely valuable advice in a world where "hackers" are obsessed with the whizziest language, version-control system, editor, database flavor, etc., and other sorts of largely irrelevant technical ephemera that ages like dead fish. Meanwhile, nobody understands statistics. It's a problem…
> don't be a programmer, be a domain expert who happens to write good code. A million times, yes. I work in RF design, which feels like an extremely stodgy part of electrical engineering. People think Excel spreadsheets are the bee's knees, even when changing one potential part in your circuit means re-entering its parameters by hand. Don't even ask them to sweep across different frequency points (which affects part…
As for the frustration you have by observing people doing mundane tasks; I bet every person who has had some decent exposure to programming have felt this way at some point (i.e "re-entering parameters by hand in excel"). And this seems so prevalent that sometimes I wonder if people should be force-fed process automation in their daily tasks. Say, we start from schools where children are deliberately given such exercises where where they have to perform tedious tasks; and then they are taught to spot and come up with ways to automate in order to speed up. Organizations could also have such culture in place where they constantly look for things that may be unnecessarily consuming employees' times, etc.
PS, obviously I am not talking about programmers as it's in their mindset to try to optimize any work they're confronted with.
Re: Advice From An Old Programmer
#148Some good points buried among juvenile posturing, I guess the "old" part must be irony. Would you take programming language advice from someone who has learned the language in "a day or a week"? I realize the point is the language doesn't really matter but statements like that and the general tenor of the post don't inspire me.
1. It's not a "post", it's a single chapter in a whole book http://learnpythonthehardway.org/book/ which I'm guessing you won't read because you clearly can't read. 2. I am old compared to a lot of programmers, but yes it was kind of a joke. There's several exercises where people know my age. 3. It's a good thing you're not my target audience. It's a lot harder for me to write in 2nd person passive voice like you're…
Re: Advice From An Old Programmer
#149Programming as an intellectual activity is the only art Programming isn't an art. Programming is a craft. The difference is that you can use a craft to make art, but crafting isn't always artistic. Let's not get over our heads and consider ourselves artists because we can code...
Oh, I'm so glad you, the one arbiter of all that is art, is able to correct our misunderstanding of the definition of "art". The truth is, you can't define art, so in the same way I can use paint to paint my house, or use paint to create a portrait, I can use programming for art or just as a day job. Finally, everything that requires skill has craft, even art.
shin_lao is suggesting that painting itself is not an art, but a craft. what you do with the paint defines whether or not it is art.
likewise, your code can create something menial the same way it can create something artful.
being able to program makes you no more of an artist than being able to put paint on a brush. whether or not being able to put paint on a brush makes you an artist, of course, is subjective. :)
Re: Advice From An Old Programmer
#150If he thinks he can learn any programming language in a week, he's still ignorant about programming languages. I challenge his knowledge of/about Haskell, Agda, etc. Also, I am sure there are plenty of "old programmers" who are still excited about programming languages, and think they matter.
I've gone through http://learnyouahaskell.com/ and it wasn't too hard. About the only difficulty is the pointless and contradictory jargon like "point free" or the hand-waving about Monads and how they violate their purely functional execution model. Never heard of Agda, but then I sort of don't care. Obviously, there are old programmers who are into programming languages, but they usually sit around writing crappy p…