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Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

reuters.com

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Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#141

Post by Zebrakopf »

temp-dude-87844 wrote: post #61

Given that some amount of alternate vaccines are available, governments are doing the right thing by "deferring" deployment of this vaccine for a short while, because this move has the highest chance avoiding direct harm to people from medicine (which is often perceived worse than harm that would have befallen people without medicine) and highest chance of avoiding an increase of brand-agnostic vaccine mistrust from…

Thank you temp-dude for this viewpoint. I did not think about it in this way before. Weighing the possible deaths of barring one of the vaccines against the possible deaths of a rise in mistrust towards vaccines seems like an impossible task.

However, the findings of blood clotting alone would not have sufficed for this argument as they really should be no cause for concern at this point in time. The knee-jerk response of other countries on the other hand makes this reasoning much more valid. Something something self-fulfilling prophecy

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#142

Post by matthewmorgan »

From the BBC's health correspondent: "The data supplied by AstraZeneca shows there have been 37 reports of blood clots among the 17m people across Europe who have been given the vaccine" ... "The 37 reports are below the level you would expect. What is more, there is no strong biological explanation why the vaccine would cause a blood clot."

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#143

Post by Rochus »

fab1an wrote: post #133

Looks like this may be a bit more relevant than many of the snarky comments would suggest - the relevant German authority on this said that they have seen a unexpected increase in a specific type of blood clotting issue that usually is very rare: https://www.pei.de/DE/newsroom/hp-meldungen/2021/210315-voru...

From the article:

Compared to the status of 11.03.2021, additional cases (as of Monday, 15.03.2021) have now been reported in Germany. In the analysis of the new data status, the experts of the Paul Ehrlich Institute now see a striking accumulation of a special form of very rare cerebral vein thrombosis (sinus vein thrombosis) in conjunction with a deficiency of blood platelets (thrombocytopenia) and bleeding in temporal proximity to vaccinations with the COVID-19 vaccine AstraZeneca.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#144

Post by verytrivial »

As far as I understand it, the EU member states are not generally short on doses, more on distribution and other regulatory issues. If they pause AZ, they can use something else which is already being manufactured right now, and likely within the EU, quelle surprise.

I would not be surprised if this is simply a political and economic snub from the EU, one of very many the UK can expect over the coming decades.

The UK has spent the last half decade ENDLESSLY trying to score points against the EU on any and every topic. This sort of wrangling is part and parcel for the relationship the UK has chosen. Basically, if the current UK Government has gone anywhere NEAR this topic, don't expect the truth to linger. This certainly includes the chest-beating around the AZ vaccine, which the government were actually going to require be shipped with a fscking Union Flag on every vial.

Edit: My understanding was based around stories like this suggesting some delays, that AZ were "striving" to deliver, and more dosed being ordered after AZ testing not covering over 65s (at the time), some hesitancy, and general mud slinging. When I say "generally short" I guess I should say that I doubt even the chest-beating Brits will be fully two-dose vaccinated to 80-90% before Autumn. It's been a year and a month or two is second order optimization in my view.

If you are concerned about shortages, there are some other continents to consider first.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/feb/24/astrazeneca-ex...

https://www.biopharma-reporter.com/Article/2021/02/18/EU-add...

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#146

Post by jayd16 »

subltemelt wrote: post #85
drcode wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A problem with bureaucracies is that they often care deeply if people die from an action they are responsible for, but are fine if there are massive deaths due to inaction.

It's interesting because I feel the opposite as an acute care doctor in the US. If I give a medication, or get a scan, or whatever, and the patient has an adverse reaction, it's the medication/scan's fault. If I don't give the medication, don't get the scan, and something bad happens, it's my fault. At least that's how people see it for now. Leads to a lot of over-treatment and extra unnecessary testing in my opinion…

>If I give a medication, or get a scan, or whatever, and the patient has an adverse reaction, it's the medication/scan's fault.

What about the Hippocratic oath? First do no harm.

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#147

Post by lxgr »

WanderPanda wrote: post #123
xgb84j wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but those are different people that might be killed, which makes it an ethical dilemma. Depending on the type of adverse reaction, it might be safer for young people to not get vaccinated at all or with a different vaccine. (For example if the adverse reaction affects mostly young people, while COVID affects mostly older people.)

Thats why everyone should be free to chose to get vaccinated. It is not fair to transfer the disease risk from old/risk groups to (longterm) side-effect risks for young/healthy people

> Thats why everyone should be free to chose to get vaccinated.

Isn't that the case? At least in my country, there is no obligation to take the vaccine, and even incentives (e.g. being able to attend public events sooner) are seen very critically.

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#148

Post by donovanian »

esperent wrote: post #111
isolli wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, and the same argument can be applied _against_ lockdowns (meaning measures such as mandatory stay-at-home orders that go beyond usual NPIs). I think it is slowly emerging that hard lockdowns have done more harm than good. There is no zero risk in life.

There's a big difference here though - when it comes to a vaccine, we have hard stats to define the risk/reward ratio. I believe it's likely that lockdowns may cause some deaths, or possibly even lots of deaths. However, they certainly help prevent the spread of deadly disease too and hence prevent many deaths. We can probably get fairly definite numbers on how many deaths lockdown prevents in a large population. I d…

> What are you basing your claim about lockdown causing death on?

It's pretty obvious there's a profound psychological, developmental (children), and economic toll of lockdowns.

For anyone that's below 60 or so, it's very clear they've got net negative effects on their life from draconian across the board measures that go on this long.

edit: wow immediately flagged? Is it verboten to mention the simple fact of economic trade-offs in any decision we make?

I'm not even saying that lockdowns are bad, I'm saying that they have profound consequences that can't be brushed away or ignored.

The fact that so many are reticent to even admit that is why I think it's so important to mention it.

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#149

Post by Zenst »

Nursie wrote: post #91
sjwest wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its unfortunate they felt the need to stop the administration of this vaccine, as this will only further slow down vaccine distribution in Germany/Europe. I think you've got it spot on there - it stinks of politically motivated attack, but I'm not clear how this could benefit Germany's politicians slowing down the administration of the vaccine? Maybe they can use this as an excuse for the poor administration rates???…

A bunch of friends of mine have spent a couple of days pretty whacked by it. Tiredness and a few headaches mostly. Make sure to get plenty of water and rest :)

Get them to look at https://yellowcard.mhra.gov.uk/ and report their side effects. That's the UK system for reporting side effects in medications of any form.

Also weekly report of the covid-19 vaccine side effects here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid...

Had my jab 3 hours ago, and enjoying a nice honey dew pomelo as I type thinking, fruit just don't get any better than this.

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#150

Post by johnnycerberus »

fab1an wrote: post #89
johnnycerberus wrote: post #29

Judging by what the German press is writing nowadays about their politicans, especially the populists (and the unionists also) that are increasingly frustrated on the incapability of Germany (and the EU altogether) to handle the COVID situation and deliver a homemade vaccine, without the help of the USA and UK, it doesn't surprise me. It could be politically.

Germany has a "homemade" vaccine (BioNTech), in fact it was the first reliable vaccine on the market, and pioneering an entirely new medical paradigm at it, but the EC botched the process of acquiring it.

Yes, I know that the brains behind the vaccine are the people from BioNTech, but without the engineering, manufacturing and delivery guaranteed by Pfizer, we would have been in a bad spot here in the EU. Research is great, but implementation is what kills us... and bureaucracy.
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