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The Covid Zoom Boom Is Reshaping Sign Language

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Re: The Covid Zoom Boom Is Reshaping Sign Language

#141

Post by _nalply »

bluGill wrote: post #136
_nalply wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing of omitting grammar: That's simply not true, I am sorry. Signed languages have a complex visual grammar. Words are inflected in many ways. I am a somewhat native speaker of the local signed language, and I sometimes discover that I uttered something I couldn't translate into German (the local oral language) without losing some meaning. This usually concerns dynamics, location and emotion. One example, I exp…

No, it is both. Grammar that is mandatory in English is optional in ASL. At the same time there is a lot of grammar in ASL that covers things that takes several sentences in English to get out. This isn't unusual. Even in spoken languages the required grammar are often different. Even in English some areas there are some contexts where "the" is mandatory in some geographical areas and not others. Linguists can give y…

> Grammar that is mandatory in English is optional in ASL.

You can't relate the two languages like this. Sorry, this doesn't make sense. For example, ASL doesn't have articles, English doesn't have location dependent pronouns for people.

Re: The Covid Zoom Boom Is Reshaping Sign Language

#142

Post by seniorgarcia »

jbergstroem wrote: post #57
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's another apparent misconception: sign language === ASL. There are many sign languages and many more dialects.

Swedish sign language used to be my native language due to having a deaf sister. After relocating to another part of the world and discussing languages, it surprised me how many times I had (have) to explain how "sign language" is not a language. That said; it is amazing how many sign languages can come to similar conclusions due to "always trying to find the simplest way of explaining yourself".

>>explain how "sign language" is not a language

Can you explain it one more time?

>>That said; it is amazing how many sign languages can come to similar conclusions due to "always trying to find the simplest way of explaining yourself".

That does sound like most languages though. So maybe sign language is a language and everything local is just a dialect? I'm sorry if I come of insensitive but I don't get it.

Re: The Covid Zoom Boom Is Reshaping Sign Language

#143

Post by vulcan01 »

chaorace wrote: post #59
mercurywells wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

English is not always the preferred language. An user of ASL may not necessarily be as proficent in English. The government version of Teams still does not have live subtitles last I checked.

That's a terrifying sentence: "the government version of Teams". Out of curiosity, what makes it different?

Schools too have a different version: "the school version of Teams". What's terrifying about Microsoft tailoring their product to (very) large customer segments?

(If you're wondering what my source is... I am a student and my school uses MS Teams).

Re: The Covid Zoom Boom Is Reshaping Sign Language

#144

Post by triceratops »

dnndev wrote: post #28
thepete2 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is kind of unrelated, but I wonder if a small amount (say 100 signs or so) of sign language (ASL or local equivalent) wouldn't be useful for hearing people in their day-to-day lives. I'm very interested in sign-language, but language being what it is you can't do it alone ...

Super powers Sign Language -> communicate with someone in a noisy room (across the room even) Braille -> A friend of mine learned braille so he could "read" books after his parents said lights out. What a rebel.

Braille books are quite expensive though, aren't they? Did they already have braille books around the house for someone else?

Re: The Covid Zoom Boom Is Reshaping Sign Language

#145

Post by triceratops »

mcguire wrote: post #119
smithza wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

when I want to be more discrete in public .. I think there is an unkindness here, though I do not think your intentions are unkind. I had very close Brazilian-internationals while a freshman in college who very deliberately chose not to speak their native tongue around Americans due to them thinking it unkind. My wife and I frequently do use some simple signs across the room, like "ready to go" (we are both hearing b…

In general, using a language those around you don't speak can be rude, but I was imagining more along the lines of "Come rescue me from this conspiracy theorist." Which would have been handy at one point for me.

> using a language those around you don't speak can be rude,

Like generally in public? Or when you're in a social group with others?

For the first scenario, I'd almost always speak a second language if I could, for privacy reasons. And also because it's less distracting to others IMO - people tune out unfamiliar languages as noise but not conversations they can understand. But yeah it's rude in the second scenario.

Re: The Covid Zoom Boom Is Reshaping Sign Language

#146

Post by z77dj3kl »

seniorgarcia wrote: post #142
jbergstroem wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Swedish sign language used to be my native language due to having a deaf sister. After relocating to another part of the world and discussing languages, it surprised me how many times I had (have) to explain how "sign language" is not a language. That said; it is amazing how many sign languages can come to similar conclusions due to "always trying to find the simplest way of explaining yourself".

>>explain how "sign language" is not a language Can you explain it one more time? >>That said; it is amazing how many sign languages can come to similar conclusions due to "always trying to find the simplest way of explaining yourself". That does sound like most languages though. So maybe sign language is a language and everything local is just a dialect? I'm sorry if I come of insensitive but I don't get it.

> Can you explain it one more time?

There is no one, universal sign language.

For example, there is Australian Sign Language (Auslan), American Sign Language (ASL), etc. They're all different languages.

I mean all spoken languages are just sounds, right? Sounds like one language to me, with multiple local dialects?

Re: The Covid Zoom Boom Is Reshaping Sign Language

#147

Post by eindiran »

_nalply wrote: post #141
bluGill wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it is both. Grammar that is mandatory in English is optional in ASL. At the same time there is a lot of grammar in ASL that covers things that takes several sentences in English to get out. This isn't unusual. Even in spoken languages the required grammar are often different. Even in English some areas there are some contexts where "the" is mandatory in some geographical areas and not others. Linguists can give y…

> Grammar that is mandatory in English is optional in ASL. You can't relate the two languages like this. Sorry, this doesn't make sense. For example, ASL doesn't have articles, English doesn't have location dependent pronouns for people.

You absolutely can do this (unless I am misunderstanding your point in which case, my apologies).

That's why there are dozens of journals in things like linguistic typology and language variation and change. There are linguists whose entire careers have been generating a sort of conceptual mapping between the morphology, syntax and phonology of spoken languages to sign languages so that you can have sensible conversations about the typological relationship between a signed language and a spoken one.

See the research of eg Diane Brentari at Chicago or Diane Lillo-Martin at UConn or Wendy Sandler at UT Austin.

Re: The Covid Zoom Boom Is Reshaping Sign Language

#148

Post by rblatz »

elil17 wrote: post #98
willcipriano wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does the language have the sort of precision required to say something like "rotund gentleman" instead? If not I can't really blame someone from saying something in the most polite way a language practically allows.

Limited practical knowledge here (beginner ASL and some time in a linguistics research lab) - there are fewer synonyms, but facial expression and other movements make a huge difference. Much like German adds suffixes that can really change the meanings of words, a eyebrow or tongue movement can modify a sign in ASL. Another reason ASL has fewer synonyms is that it’s not a horrible amalgamation of a ton of different l…

ASL does have a large heritage from French Sign Language, but it also was influenced by Martha’s Vineyard Sign Language.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martha%27s_Vineyard_Sign_Lan...

Re: The Covid Zoom Boom Is Reshaping Sign Language

#149

Post by eindiran »

_nalply wrote: post #122
tyingq wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd add in a third bullet noting that sign languages generally favor omitting unnecessary grammar, structure, etc. Like "I love you" as [love sign] -> [point at person you love]. Or for example that "very" might exist in a signed language, but isn't often used. Just substituted with a more physically animated/vigorous version of the adjective, or added facial expression.

The thing of omitting grammar: That's simply not true, I am sorry. Signed languages have a complex visual grammar. Words are inflected in many ways. I am a somewhat native speaker of the local signed language, and I sometimes discover that I uttered something I couldn't translate into German (the local oral language) without losing some meaning. This usually concerns dynamics, location and emotion. One example, I exp…

> Linguists have discovered that this is not pantomime.

Here is a recent article that covers this in significant depth: https://www.glossa-journal.org/articles/10.5334/gjgl.499/

The emergence of Nicaraguan Sign Language is a very revealing case is this regard: in much the same process as creolization, a sort of "pidgin" of home signs was transformed into a full sign language in a generation by "grammaticalizing" gestures and simple home signs from older children by the younger children. So it doesn't take long for a gesture to move right on Kendon's continuum until its fully "linguistic".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicaraguan_Sign_Language

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_sign

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pidgin

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creolization

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gesture#Kendon's_continuum

Re: The Covid Zoom Boom Is Reshaping Sign Language

#150

Post by seniorgarcia »

z77dj3kl wrote: post #146
seniorgarcia wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>explain how "sign language" is not a language Can you explain it one more time? >>That said; it is amazing how many sign languages can come to similar conclusions due to "always trying to find the simplest way of explaining yourself". That does sound like most languages though. So maybe sign language is a language and everything local is just a dialect? I'm sorry if I come of insensitive but I don't get it.

> Can you explain it one more time? There is no one, universal sign language. For example, there is Australian Sign Language (Auslan), American Sign Language (ASL), etc. They're all different languages. I mean all spoken languages are just sounds, right? Sounds like one language to me, with multiple local dialects?

No, the type of sounds can be grouped into distinct language families and further down into language "branches". I just don't see (no pun intended) how this translates into different sign languages.
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