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How can you not be romantic about programming? (2020)

thorstenball.com

141–150 of 373 posts

Re: How can you not be romantic about programming? (2020)

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

don't have the will/independence ("budget") to implement that change So, dicks and idiot middle managers. I think you made his point.

No. This is such a small issue who honestly cares if it gets fixed? I guarantee you this is not the most important thing anyone involved could be working on. Too many perfectionists on this website.

This is a total failure to follow any sort of standard.

A 504 is a gateway timeout due to the server failing to complete the action, hell, a 400-level for "you fucked up" would be preferable.

Re: How can you not be romantic about programming? (2020)

#142

"After a while, more and more, you’ll find yourself in moments of awe, stunned by the size and fragility of it all; the mountains of work and talent and creativity and foresight and intelligence and luck that went into it. And you’ll reach for the word “magic” because you won’t know how else to describe it and then you lean back and smile, wondering how someone could not." I guess I wish I felt like that about progra…

I don't know about most people but devs should have their own personal knowledge management system ( do it on any tool, notion, evernote..) but it's an absolute must. These facts you talk about are fleeting and in the moment the revelations of the learnings seem so clear, but 4 weeks and all the little details go out the window. Save all your little Linux command pipe chains. Config values that worked and few sentences of caution to your future self of what to do and not to do. Otherwise you're just going to make the same mistakes in an years time...

Re: How can you not be romantic about programming? (2020)

#143
post #82
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But answering the question literally, I am not representative of everyone in the industry, I am deeply /deeply/ romantic about programming, but industry is dreck. Unimaginative, low potential, sapping, low-ambition, filled with endless middle- & low-roads & compromises. Countless stakeholders, endless non-technical-personals to "reason" with. Plans & designs & endless corporate aligning & planning. All for middling…

Quoted post unavailable.

> It’s boring and people only do it because they’re too socially unsuccessful to participate in things that are actually fun,

To throw some bombs the other way, I think there's a legit feeling that a lot of the socialization/fun that humanity gets up to is frivolous, pointless, dis-engaged, solipsistic avoidance of how they are spending their lives. We are all engaged in distracting ourselves at some level (Terror Management Theory[1]), and while it is popularly accepted that being popular & social is how one wins, I think there have been a lot of folks who feel other callings, to do, to make, to explore, and often it's less than clear how to do these activities socially. Einstein only found two other people in the world when he made the Olympia Academy[1], but that was enough. Other people wouldn't call that social fun, but it engaged him, and I would judge more earnestly & wholly & to greater joy than most people's social fun.

> so they convince themselves spending hundreds of hours making boring stuff is actually a good use of their time. I understand that some programming is great, but since 99% of all software is not interesting, I don’t believe the amount of people who say they love it.

I'm much more sympathetic to this all. So much of my first post was about the split, the difficulty, of doing software development from within the confines of the corporate-industrial environment.

There are endless fun challenges & explorations to get up to (from within those confines). There's so many things that feel good about programming, about feeling like one has gotten on top of these confounding complex problems, & built a secure well structured coherent domain for oneself. I think there is fun here, genuine fun, but I also think it's distracting & shallow. It's the social gossip of software development. Decoupled from what one is doing.

Most software is, alas, built in corporate-industrial manner. Most programmers are merely producers, not imaginators, not true creators, very much by design of the corporate-industrial system, & it's accepted as 99.999% hard fact that programmers need the help of other people or else they will make horrible software that won't help users. Very little software that is written, I would say, is written by software. This wraps up into the whole corporate-industrial software problem, that software is always intent on being product, on consumerization, and I strongly feel it's the lack of trust & lack of exploration that keeps 99% of software in the not-interesting realm, that keeps computers as a whole impervious & uninteresting & uncompelling & unknown (the proverbial kids who know a couple apps really well but nothing more about computing).

Most of the programmers you meet, who you accuse of not being passionate: perhaps you are right. They're having fun, but how engaged are they? Are they avoiding the fear of death, engaging themselves in industrial fun? Or do they really have a passion, see the world truly, have some sense of place of it all, & feel a connection to something? Are they facing the terror of death earnestly, more genuinely; have they advanced beyond the socializing masses? I think your doubts are well founded. I think we ought be critical, try to keep a cosmic brain view & skepticism, of ourselves & our applications.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terror_management_theory

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympia_Academy

Re: How can you not be romantic about programming? (2020)

#144
There's a difference between being romantic about solving puzzles and creating new and useful tools, and being romantic about the drudgery and bugs. I wouldn't call the people who pretend there aren't boring parts of programming 'romantics', it's more of a delusion. But those people do exist, and I don't trust them.

Re: How can you not be romantic about programming? (2020)

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The longer I am in this profession (and it's been over 20 years) the less I see my peers as "dicks and idiots" but more as victims of the same broken game. I work with very smart people, to be honest. It's the technology and the employers and the culture of development that's the problem. Retiring sounds good right about now.

> Retiring sounds good right about now. I tried that. After 6 weeks of watching TV I restarted my business and went back to work. Retirement is a living death.

Hey, thanks for sharing this. Mind expanding? I'm curious to hear what you had planned going into retirement and what you seek going back to work. Are you right back to the same as you were right before "retiring"? Knowing how your first round of retirement went, what would you have done differently in the years/decades leading up to it?

Re: How can you not be romantic about programming? (2020)

#146
post #126

I've found being too attached to code is a recipe for frustration in the workplace. You code something elegant, simple, dare I say beautiful and inevitably it will be butchered by new product requirements, business needs, that quick hack to satisfy a client or more generally uncaring colleagues who are looking to get their job done as quickly as possible. Perhaps romantic aspects could only be achieved when there are…

If your code gets butchered it is not that great. That's something I am slowly learning, and by slowly I mean in the scale of decades. I've seen some of my old code I wrote in the workplace ten years ago, going through the hands of many developers of various skill levels and with different ideas, and then getting back to me. Needless to say, it is pretty ugly. Analyzing that, I found the real good parts mostly untouc…

I agree with your points with a couple of caveats. I've written a lot of terrible code. For the good stuff it's usually not the existing lines of code or structure that are butchered rather the additions which do not follow the spirit of the original code. That ranges from trivialities such as code style of another developer or more serious issues of making a mess to fit a completely orthogonal new requirement, not utilizing existing functionality rather just doing similar things in different ways etc. In such cases a small refactor would suffice but that almost never happens due to time constraints.

On the topic of overly complex stuff not being touched, I find that's usually because no one understands it and hence others refrain from touching it lest it break.

Re: How can you not be romantic about programming? (2020)

#147
post #10
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or this: “Find creative ways around standards, limits, laws, processes, morals, etc. so I can make a quick buck and pass you some table scraps”

Or worse than table scraps: pieces of paper that may be worth something someday if you keep working hard enough.

The system and forces that make this table scrap arrangement possible are the same forces that generally drive the salaries and perks of tech workers much higher than the average for other professions. It's healthy to be cynical but it's also important to look at the overall balance of power of the social classes. The 9% versus 90% makes more sense than the 99%

Re: How can you not be romantic about programming? (2020)

#148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The longer I am in this profession (and it's been over 20 years) the less I see my peers as "dicks and idiots" but more as victims of the same broken game. I work with very smart people, to be honest. It's the technology and the employers and the culture of development that's the problem. Retiring sounds good right about now.

> Retiring sounds good right about now. I tried that. After 6 weeks of watching TV I restarted my business and went back to work. Retirement is a living death.

Maybe the problem is that you spent it watching TV?

Re: How can you not be romantic about programming? (2020)

#149
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The longer I am in this profession (and it's been over 20 years) the less I see my peers as "dicks and idiots" but more as victims of the same broken game. I work with very smart people, to be honest. It's the technology and the employers and the culture of development that's the problem. Retiring sounds good right about now.

I’m 20 years in as well... I think it’s still fun... it’s just a game of fixing things... the other game about how people interact is not as fun but still kinda interesting... game on old friend

"it’s just a game of fixing things"

25+ years in, I get little joy/fun from constantly 'fixing things' that shouldn't have needed fixing (or nearly as much fixing) had people planned ahead, or communicated, or tested, or just listened to the people they'd hired that do these things (plan/communicate/test/etc).

Re: How can you not be romantic about programming? (2020)

#150
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know it's the biggest cliche in the world, but the grass isn't always greener on the other side. Lots of musicians wish they had a skill that let them sit at a desk all day and get a stable paycheck. Not saying you have to keep working in tech forever, but I don't think it's objectively stopped being fun and interesting.

Absolutely. Every friend I talk to, from central bankers to dramaturgs, has regrets about the career they chose. It generally breaks down into where they are on the spectrum from (a) they wish their job was more creative to (b) they wish they had more money to live comfortably. I know almost no-one who is content that they've found a happy medium, and the few that do have done so through blind luck.

An alternate perspective to this is. The great line of thought, that you are meant to 'follow your passion' and discover your true calling. There is a job mean for you and you just need to find it.

I disagree with this and feel this thinking makes peoples lives miserable thinking they're somehow wasting their lives and makes people take plunges in life that they later regret.

I feel there is space for an attitude that, to learn a craft you need to toil and master it with deep dedication and practice. Mastery, will bring with it naturally that joy that we seek.

I think if people consider their craft as bigger than themselves, with an attitude of humility and learning they will get the happiness and satisfaction of building things. Rather than seeking a job that's somehow obliged to give you that happiness juice..

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