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Hate Java? You’re fighting the wrong battle.

javacodegeeks.com

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Re: Hate Java? You’re fighting the wrong battle.

#141

Post by forensic »

Dove wrote: post #82
forensic wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... and yet Steve Pavlina was a Windows developer. Do we have to quote cult leaders on Hacker News? Steve Pavlina is the guy who writes blog posts about winning blackjack through ESP. His wife is a professional psychic. He sells magic CDs for hundreds of dollars that will give you psychic powers when you listen to them in bed. There's no credibility to be found here.

If I ignored anyone who I thought held a stupid opinion on any topic whatsoever, I'd be ignoring a lot of very smart people.

Not all very smart people are trying to help you, so it is appropriate to ignore a lot of very smart people.

In order for someone to be useful to you they need to tell the truth and give you accurate information that has been tested and verified.

There are lots of very smart people who it would be a big mistake to listen to. Cult leaders are the perfect example!

Re: Hate Java? You’re fighting the wrong battle.

#142

Post by uriel »

nostrademons wrote: post #55
michaelochurch wrote: post #22

I'm going to cite Steve Pavlina here: http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/07/how-to-get-from-a-7... Some snippets: A 7 seems very close to a 9 or 10, but often a 7 is a local maximum — you can’t get any higher by continuing to follow the same path that got you to that 7 in the first place. A 7 is pretty good. At this level you feel generally content. It’s OK, fine, acceptable, satisfactory. What you’ll find when yo…

"This is what switching out of the Java paradigm, into Ocaml or Haskell, is like." If you try to do real, production programs in Haskell or Ocaml, you find that they have a lot of problems too. I've written some reasonably cool stuff in Haskell (like one of the top tutorials that people use to learn it). My teammate got his Ph.D under Simon Peyton Jones and did his doctoral thesis in Haskell. We were talking one day…

This is one of the reasons I love Go, it is preeminently pragmatic language, not designed for "mediocre programmers" (Java) or "genius programmers" (Ocaml, Haskell, C++), or to fulfill feature checklists, but to be useful and used by hackers that want to get stuff done and not just to think about stuff.

Re: Hate Java? You’re fighting the wrong battle.

#143

Post by forensic »

pavpanchekha wrote: post #91
forensic wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... and yet Steve Pavlina was a Windows developer. Do we have to quote cult leaders on Hacker News? Steve Pavlina is the guy who writes blog posts about winning blackjack through ESP. His wife is a professional psychic. He sells magic CDs for hundreds of dollars that will give you psychic powers when you listen to them in bed. There's no credibility to be found here.

We're not quoting him because he's a cult leader. We're quoting him because it was a reasonably insightful blog post that is relevant to the topic. I, in fact, have no clue who Steve is, and found the posted link a valuable addition to the discussion. If you believe it was not so, I'd love to hear your reasons.

You found it valuable despite:

1. There being no evidence provided to support the claims.

2. The author being a well-known cultish demagogue willing to say anything to get your attention.

Re: Hate Java? You’re fighting the wrong battle.

#144

Post by forensic »

Periodic wrote: post #43
michaelochurch wrote: post #22

I'm going to cite Steve Pavlina here: http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/07/how-to-get-from-a-7... Some snippets: A 7 seems very close to a 9 or 10, but often a 7 is a local maximum — you can’t get any higher by continuing to follow the same path that got you to that 7 in the first place. A 7 is pretty good. At this level you feel generally content. It’s OK, fine, acceptable, satisfactory. What you’ll find when yo…

I'm reminded of the first time I tried out Ruby on Rails. I had done some PHP, Perl, C, and Java programming before that. I had worked on some medium sized projects, but in general anything larger than a few dozen files got so complicated it was hard to keep track of. Then I saw what a really good OO design was like. I learned what real separation of concerns and encapsulation could do. It was an epiphany that the pr…

I don't understand that because Java is more object-oriented than Ruby, not less.

Most people seem to think that Ruby got popular because it was LESS Object-oriented than C++, Java and .NET.

Re: Hate Java? You’re fighting the wrong battle.

#145

Post by uriel »

sqrt17 wrote: post #8

So, which battle are Java haters fighting? Java is mostly-ubiquitous and is "good enough" for a number of common tasks, and has good enough structure for mediocre programmers working on important-but-uninteresting problems. As a result (and the blog author says this), there is enough hate-worthy Java code there, just as there used to be enough hate-worthy C and C++ code around, and there probably is enough hate-worth…

> where Rubyists and Pythonistas are monkey-patching metaclass decorators

I hate Java, and this is one of the main reasons I also hate Ruby and Python.

The opposite of the Java-bureaucracy is not necessarily "features" that are a few times over too clever for their own good.

If there is only one thing Java ever got right for example is to avoid multiple-inheritance and operator overloading.

Also the Java vs. C++ dichotomy you present is not shared by many Java hatters, just take a look at all the quotes here that mention C++: http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/java

Re: Hate Java? You’re fighting the wrong battle.

#146

Post by uriel »

justincormack wrote: post #76
wickedchicken wrote: post #56

Since there are many languages that now target the JVM, I guess my main distrust should be targeted towards that instead of the language itself. Can someone explain to me what the advantage of running on the JVM is compared to something else (including native code generation)? From what I understand it provides: native tuned GC, stable and tuned JIT, and a class/module mechanism revolving around reusable code librari…

The JVM allows commercial software to be usefully cross platform. If you are working with open source or scripting/jitted/non compiled languages this doesnt matter. Compiled C or C++ code was hard to get for the right architecture and work with. But it makes no difference for open source, hence the Linux coders disdain for VM languages, and it makes no sense with Python or Ruby where you interpret the source. And nat…

The JVM is "cross platform" if you only care about no more than three platforms.

If you want to run it on anything else, you are pretty much SOL.

This is not what anyone should call portable.

Re: Hate Java? You’re fighting the wrong battle.

#147

Post by uriel »

MatthewPhillips wrote: post #124
justincormack wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Go will be released for Android next year. Maybe other languages too. It is a huge legal risk for Android not to have a fallback from Java.

I love Go, but it is a systems language (a C replacement), not a UI language. That's not even my opinion, that's how they market it.

Actually, Go would be great for GUI programming, precisely because it has a concurrency model that doesn't suck, and GUIs are almost always concurrent. Remember that Go's concurrency model is a descendant of CSP which Rob Pike first used in Squeak, a language designed exclusively for building GUIs: http://doc.cat-v.org/bell_labs/squeak/

Re: Hate Java? You’re fighting the wrong battle.

#148

Post by uriel »

MrMan wrote: post #110
justincormack wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The JVM allows commercial software to be usefully cross platform. If you are working with open source or scripting/jitted/non compiled languages this doesnt matter. Compiled C or C++ code was hard to get for the right architecture and work with. But it makes no difference for open source, hence the Linux coders disdain for VM languages, and it makes no sense with Python or Ruby where you interpret the source. And nat…

You have packed a lot of misinformation into one post. Cross platform does not matter for open source? People who use Linux also have a disdain for VMs like those that run Erlang, Python, Java, Scala, Clojure, etc? The JVM is probably the foremost example of a VM that uses JIT-ing really really well to achieve near-native speeds for a VM language.

Of all the VMs you mention, the JVM is by far the least portable of all.

Re: Hate Java? You’re fighting the wrong battle.

#149

Post by uriel »

mattgreenrocks wrote: post #27
Corrado wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, we were talking about this specific thing at work the other day. How come all non-trivial Java programs end up a mass of Factory and Implementation classes?! Several of the systems I support even weave in Spring, which while helping in some ways, completely obliterates readability. :(

My theory is that the language's lack of complexity bothers 'high-end' Java devs at a subconscious level, so they think they have to invent it in order to seem relevant to the larger community. Another idea is they may believe elegance is a function of using powerful language constructs, rather than a function of minimalism. I see the same problems in Ruby sometimes: metaprogramming used without a compelling need. Lu…

Java is way more complex than it should be, specially after badly botched features like generics were added.

Re: Hate Java? You’re fighting the wrong battle.

#150

Post by theBobMcCormick »

forensic wrote: post #144
Periodic wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm reminded of the first time I tried out Ruby on Rails. I had done some PHP, Perl, C, and Java programming before that. I had worked on some medium sized projects, but in general anything larger than a few dozen files got so complicated it was hard to keep track of. Then I saw what a really good OO design was like. I learned what real separation of concerns and encapsulation could do. It was an epiphany that the pr…

I don't understand that because Java is more object-oriented than Ruby, not less. Most people seem to think that Ruby got popular because it was LESS Object-oriented than C++, Java and .NET.

In what way is Java more object oriented than Ruby?

In Ruby, everything is an object. There's nothing like Java's glaringly out of place "primitive data types". Not to mention that late binding is one of the qualities Alan Kay listed as being central the the meaning of the concept "Object Oriented Programming".

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