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UK to launch taxpayer-funded high-risk tech research agency exempt from FOI

thetimes.co.uk

141–150 of 210 posts

Re: UK to launch taxpayer-funded high-risk tech research agency exempt from FOI

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bridge, yes. Tunnel, no. It’s very feasible and practical from a civil-engineering perspective, but the economic value of a road connection between NI and Scotland has not been demonstrated to outweigh the economic cost of its construction.

Infact: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/feb/14/rail-bosses-...

Even more fun: the relevant area of sea has had one million tons of explosives dumped there as well as chemical weapons and even some radioactive waste:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaufort%27s_Dyke

Re: UK to launch taxpayer-funded high-risk tech research agency exempt from FOI

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The comment is making fun of a proposal Boris Johnson once made about building a bridge from Scotland to Northern Ireland, which is considered borderline physically impossible as far as I understand.

Bridge, yes. Tunnel, no. It’s very feasible and practical from a civil-engineering perspective, but the economic value of a road connection between NI and Scotland has not been demonstrated to outweigh the economic cost of its construction.

What’s feesible? The tunnel or the bridge? I’d heard the tunnel wasn’t possible due to the particular geography of the channel. But a bridge? Now that I’d be interesting I seeing. There used to be a giants causeway across there in mythical times ...

Re: UK to launch taxpayer-funded high-risk tech research agency exempt from FOI

#143
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the U.S. everything is technically exempt from FOIA to a degree. Having gone through that process while I was in the military, I found many of the loopholes. The obvious ones are that the answer can be "Classified" or "Decline to answer" or in my case, the answer can be boxes and boxes of paperwork that is worded so vague that it may as well not have existed. No idea if this is the same in the U.K. Is there anyone…

I haven't submitted one personally, but from knowing someone who has (and has received them) and reading Private Eye (satirical & investigative magazine here) I gather a more common/easily usable excuse this side of the pond is 'commercial sensitivity'.

and heavy redaction

I’ve also seen fees being used which is technically legal and is supposed to be a reasonable administrative charge but can be multiplied by the number of subjects involved for instance.

Re: UK to launch taxpayer-funded high-risk tech research agency exempt from FOI

#144

The FOI part means this is dead on arrival and will be abused all ends up. For this to work you need the public to understand why DARPA worked. Hiding details of failures makes that impossible (and again, completely open to corruption).

Genuine question: why did DARPA work?

Blank cheques

Re: UK to launch taxpayer-funded high-risk tech research agency exempt from FOI

#145

OK so the British HNers commenting seem to be unimpressed. :) Leaving this specific agency/project aside, what would be the right way to do this? How do we do public investment in high risk projects well?

Allow public oversight - the reason people from the uk are unimpressed is because we have no trust in this governments ability to not give large contracts to friends and donors rather than actually talented engineers with good ideas. The tories have a long and storied history of mishandling public science and technology funding in this country.

Re: UK to launch taxpayer-funded high-risk tech research agency exempt from FOI

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DARPA gets used as an example a lot, so let's take it as a our type specimen. What makes an (D)ARPA? What (besides funding) made it work? Is secrecy and/or low accountability important? Defense/weapons focus? Was the cold war a necessary condition? Do they have an investment philosophy that could be copied? Managerial philosophy? Is high level stuff even relevant or is it details like 5 year PM appointments and selec…

Likely more than you ever wanted to know on the topic: https://benjaminreinhardt.com/wddw A couple things I'd pull out: Program managers sit limited terms to prevent empire building Program managers have a great deal of autonomy once funding is initially allocated DARPA has a high appetite for risk. They're ok with 90% of projects failing to hit their goal.

From your link:

> I would rather this be read by a few people motivated to take action than by a broad audience who will find it merely interesting. In that vein, if you find yourself wanting to share this on Twitter or Hacker News, consider instead sharing it with one or two friends who will take action on it. Thank you for indulging me!

You maybe shouldn't have shared that here, but thanks!

Re: UK to launch taxpayer-funded high-risk tech research agency exempt from FOI

#147

I still don't see how any government granting committee can outperform hundreds of private venture funds competing for exposure to new opportunities. Even if you have a government dept. of 10x geniuses, they don't scale to compete with a healthy investment community. As described, the risks I see are that, it has the incentives for a patronage slush fund, there will be selection bias to hedge political risk around pe…

The UK has had an issue with early-stage financing for nearly a century (the Macmillan Gap). There are numerous examples of these schemes working in the UK and without: in East Asia, ICFC, Scottish Enterprise, some programs in the EU...there is no real question that this can work (this isn't replacing venture capital btw, this is just...not what this is for, the idea that this wouldn't work though is also totally incorrect, you could have believed it in the 80s, not now).

Equally, the UK has a gap in research funding. The private sector has had, literally, decades to close it. The gap is closed in many other economies by the govt, so this is a reasonable solution. The govt has also done a huge amount to involve the private sector, most of the approach has been about the private sector but this is targeted on an area where it is basically understood there is market failure.

There are always risks around politics, this has happened to an extent with Scottish Enterprise and the new SIB, but this problem isn't going to solve itself, and the path to oversight is relatively straightforward. Saying that has to be corruption just makes no sense when any funding is going to be under the same constraints as most other govt funding (I have no idea why people FOI is public scrutiny, it isn't, FOI would not help you uncover corruption to any degree...that isn't what it is for or how it is used, if you believe that the govt is corrupt, defund all services, that is it...that is the only logical conclusion that can be drawn from that belief, we have FOI and it isn't stopping corruption...so defund it all).

Re: UK to launch taxpayer-funded high-risk tech research agency exempt from FOI

#148

The FOI part means this is dead on arrival and will be abused all ends up. For this to work you need the public to understand why DARPA worked. Hiding details of failures makes that impossible (and again, completely open to corruption).

In the U.S. everything is technically exempt from FOIA to a degree. Having gone through that process while I was in the military, I found many of the loopholes. The obvious ones are that the answer can be "Classified" or "Decline to answer" or in my case, the answer can be boxes and boxes of paperwork that is worded so vague that it may as well not have existed. No idea if this is the same in the U.K. Is there anyone…

There are many ways to prevent material being subject to FOI. Commercial confidence is one, classification/generic national security grounds is another. There are also some good reasons for this - in many cases, there are genuine commercial concerns.

This might be controversial, but it's very hard to have negotiations in good-faith with a company for services, and drive a hard bargain, if the company knows that the pricing offered to government can be FOI'd by a rival or other customer, to get granular price offered.

If you want to get the best value for money, and get below list price, you need the ability to have a commercial negotiation, with the confidence that granular pricing information (i.e. emails with discounted price lists for government customers) aren't becoming public.

That's not to say the total amount spent should be kept secret, but if exact breakdowns of unit pricing were going to be made public, it would likely cost the public more in the inability of government to negotiate around price with suppliers (or rather their unwillingness to enter into such negotiations)

Similarly, any kind of serious negotiation needs to have secrecy - it's very hard in a practical sense to have a negotiation with a party that has to (or might be forced to) publish everything. The number of startups (and even larger companies) that do everything as price-on-request should show industry's willingness to see the kind of price tarnsparency that FOI would expose. And that would give the taxpayer poorer value for money in the long term.

Re: UK to launch taxpayer-funded high-risk tech research agency exempt from FOI

#149
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bridge, yes. Tunnel, no. It’s very feasible and practical from a civil-engineering perspective, but the economic value of a road connection between NI and Scotland has not been demonstrated to outweigh the economic cost of its construction.

What’s feesible? The tunnel or the bridge? I’d heard the tunnel wasn’t possible due to the particular geography of the channel. But a bridge? Now that I’d be interesting I seeing. There used to be a giants causeway across there in mythical times ...

The bridge is unfeasible because the channel is around 200m deep in places which makes it crazy expensive. I also found a couple of references to nuclear waste in the trench, but that might have been for another site.

Re: UK to launch taxpayer-funded high-risk tech research agency exempt from FOI

#150
post #149
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s feesible? The tunnel or the bridge? I’d heard the tunnel wasn’t possible due to the particular geography of the channel. But a bridge? Now that I’d be interesting I seeing. There used to be a giants causeway across there in mythical times ...

The bridge is unfeasible because the channel is around 200m deep in places which makes it crazy expensive. I also found a couple of references to nuclear waste in the trench, but that might have been for another site.

Both of which I was aware of but I heard that some kind of suspension design would work. The tunnel is infeasible because there’s a very deep trench there, and that as you mentioned is filled with all sorts of nasty stuff.
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