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Larry Flynt has died

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Re: Larry Flynt has died

#141
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Moral arguments are in the west almost always made from a puritanical standpoint, of which this post is a good example. To anyone who isn't puritanical, it's not very interesting to say that because they've already decided they don't think like that. To someone who is, you're posting something they essentially already agree with. Both of those sides won't really produce interesting discourse, unless you're very inves…

Believing that hardcore pornographers "objectify women" makes you "puritanical" now? OP's criticism was quite civil and reasonable compared to some anti-pornography people I've seen before. And it's absolutely true magazines like Hustler objectified women! Have you ever seen one? The entire point is to objectify women and sex! That's entirely different than claiming you're evil or bad for producing porn...

Something of a facile distinction, given that the construction "objectify women" has a strong negative valence, and implies you're doing something wrong. I won't say "immoral," since the modern moral majority doesn't use that term. It marginalizes the voices of those with woman-aligned identities, I guess.

You can say the point of Hustler is to objectify women, or you can say the point of Hustler is to let people get their rocks off. These are both true, as far as they go, but there are assumptions in each statement that you need to unpack a little. "Getting your rocks off" acknowledges and tacitly approves of a certain framing of the magazine. "Objectifying women" acknowledges a different framing and includes a tacit disapproval. To say that a criticism of the magazine as objectifying women is reasonable because it is true is weak, because you're not acknowledging the framing. The rocks-off framing is equally true, and in the same way, but you might still disagree with it because of the framing.

Hustler is a magazine that pays women for provocative pictures, and it packages and publishes them for the sexual gratification of men. I think it's fair to say that it objectifies women, in the sense that the men looking at the pictures are treating them as objects of sexual gratification. To say, sans other context or sentiment, that the magazine objectifies women, does, however, suggest a puritanical goal or objective. Out of a large bag of potential framings, or combination of framings—libertarian, sex-positive, live-and-let-live, religious, enlightenmentarian, humorous remove, indifference—you're selecting the framing that suggests you want this thing to be attached to a strong negative valence. It's also done in the epistemically cowardly way in which many social criticisms are now made. If you said it was immoral, that would at least tip your hand a bit, and show a little conviction.

Re: Larry Flynt has died

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Not because he was a pornographer, but simply because he did what he pleased and fought like hell to protect that right. That's what's wrong with the "free" world. If something's legal doesn't mean it's moral. He did what he pleased for sure, but at what expense. Many would argue he contributed to objectifying women. There's always a flip side.

Moral arguments are in the west almost always made from a puritanical standpoint, of which this post is a good example. To anyone who isn't puritanical, it's not very interesting to say that because they've already decided they don't think like that. To someone who is, you're posting something they essentially already agree with. Both of those sides won't really produce interesting discourse, unless you're very inves…

> Moral arguments are in the west almost always made from a puritanical standpoint,

In my experience there is significantly more variety.

Re: Larry Flynt has died

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Larry Flynt was someone pushing the boundaries of his day, even in the world of pornography (Hustler was more explicit than Playboy, for example). Today's random pornographer is not a "Larry Flynt". Flynt is more akin to Snowden or Assange, or even Parler, in boldness. (not comparing content, just free speech boldness)

To say Larry Flynt was politically correct by today's standards is completely false. Just look at Wikipedia. He called Sandra Day O'Connor "a token cunt". He wore the American flag as a diaper. Hustler regularly published Chester the Molester, a comic strip, even after the author was convicted of molestation (which later got overturned).

Definitely - not sure if you're responding to me with intention of suggesting it, but I definitely didn't say he was politically correct.

My father had a collection of Hustler from the 70s and 80s that as a teen in the early 90s I sneakily perused; this was definitely the golden age of the magazine's anti-PC speech, with all you mentioned, as well as unveiled racism.

Re: Larry Flynt has died

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To say Larry Flynt was politically correct by today's standards is completely false. Just look at Wikipedia. He called Sandra Day O'Connor "a token cunt". He wore the American flag as a diaper. Hustler regularly published Chester the Molester, a comic strip, even after the author was convicted of molestation (which later got overturned).

Definitely - not sure if you're responding to me with intention of suggesting it, but I definitely didn't say he was politically correct. My father had a collection of Hustler from the 70s and 80s that as a teen in the early 90s I sneakily perused; this was definitely the golden age of the magazine's anti-PC speech, with all you mentioned, as well as unveiled racism.

I guess I was reading too much into the "in his day" part. My point was that the world hasn't gotten less sensitive to his attitude and speech. It might have even gotten more sensitive.

Re: Larry Flynt has died

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Definitely - not sure if you're responding to me with intention of suggesting it, but I definitely didn't say he was politically correct. My father had a collection of Hustler from the 70s and 80s that as a teen in the early 90s I sneakily perused; this was definitely the golden age of the magazine's anti-PC speech, with all you mentioned, as well as unveiled racism.

I guess I was reading too much into the "in his day" part. My point was that the world hasn't gotten less sensitive to his attitude and speech. It might have even gotten more sensitive.

Yes, I was responding to a comment implying his pornography would be considered tame by today's standards (which it would, but you must consider the context of the time).

I agree that his non-pornographic content would be viewed with a very sensitive eye today.

Re: Larry Flynt has died

#146
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Someone can believe in free speech while choosing to censor their own platform No, someone can __CLAIM__ to believe in free speech, but if they're not allowing it on their own platform then they really don't. There's a reason why the adage "actions speak louder than words" exists.

That's odd, given that literally every platform I've seen proclaimed as pro free-speech moderates content to some degree or another, which implies no platform owner believes in free speech. And given that some editorial decisions must have been made WRT Hustler at some point (they didn't publish literally everything and anything,) I guess Larry Flynt never really believed in free speech either.

What's odd is someone arguing that removing child porn and removing any mention of the Hunter Biden story are equivalent acts.

Re: Larry Flynt has died

#147

I have a friend who interviewed to be CTO of Larry Flynt Publications. She said that when she went in to interview, the first thing they did was sit her in a small office filled with examples of Hustler products and publications. They said, "We'll leave you here for a few minutes to look at what we do. If you decide you're not interested in working with us, you can just leave without checking in with anyone and we'll…

...and then they all clapped?

Re: Larry Flynt has died

#148
post #81

Rest In Peace Larry, you old curmudgeon! I had the pleasure of working for Larry and can say that in some ways he was a hero of mine. Not because he was a pornographer, but simply because he did what he pleased and fought like hell to protect that right. He risked everything he had to prove his points because he knew if he failed he would have nothing. I didn't always agree with what we were publishing and producing,…

>Not because he was a pornographer, but simply because he did what he pleased and fought like hell to protect that right. That's what's wrong with the "free" world. If something's legal doesn't mean it's moral. He did what he pleased for sure, but at what expense. Many would argue he contributed to objectifying women. There's always a flip side.

Agreed, and we all have different values. I've always found morals, like religion and politics to be a slippery slope. I try to not judge others on theirs as long as they are not effecting me too much.

Had he not existed would women have been less objectified in that era? Do you know what their circulation/sales were compared to say Playboy at that time? Or other mass media that was running objectifying ads? What he added, was a rain drop in a lake, IMHO. Gotta pick your battles.

Re: Larry Flynt has died

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Not because he was a pornographer, but simply because he did what he pleased and fought like hell to protect that right. That's what's wrong with the "free" world. If something's legal doesn't mean it's moral. He did what he pleased for sure, but at what expense. Many would argue he contributed to objectifying women. There's always a flip side.

Agreed, and we all have different values. I've always found morals, like religion and politics to be a slippery slope. I try to not judge others on theirs as long as they are not effecting me too much. Had he not existed would women have been less objectified in that era? Do you know what their circulation/sales were compared to say Playboy at that time? Or other mass media that was running objectifying ads? What he…

If you think you are too small to make difference, try sleeping with a mosquito.

Re: Larry Flynt has died

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Believe it or not, Hustler has a bustling web presence.

Not trying to keep arguing but I wouldn't call it "bustling" with an Alexa rank of 261,156. I don't think anybody who doesn't know the print magazine would know about their web presence.

One might call it un-bustling, one imagines less clothes not more, but perhaps a bustle being underwear is more de rigeur
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