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Migrate Everything from Linux to BSD

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Re: Migrate Everything from Linux to BSD

#141

Post by enriquto »

nine_k wrote: post #75
willismichael wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest question, if nobody likes systemd, then why is it still around and why is it so difficult for me to find a distro that hasn't adopted it?

Easy answer: Gnome desktop. Red Hat produced systemd. Red Hat is the major contributor to Gnome. Gnome now refuses to run without systemd. Every major distro wants to carry Gnome, so... Well, at least some distros offer a choice. Some other distros (Alpine, popular for containers, Void, which powers my laptop) live happily without it. Various shims exist, logind exists to allow running things like Xfce without system…

> Gnome now refuses to run without systemd.

Is that true? The gentoo documentation says that you can chose your init system independently of your desktop manager, and puts openrc+gnome as an example:

https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/GNOME/GNOME_Without_systemd/Gen...

You can also install GNOME on OpenBSD, which of course does not run systemd.

Re: Migrate Everything from Linux to BSD

#142

Post by 1_player »

dataflow wrote: post #43
nine_k wrote: post #22

The fragmented nature is what I love about Linux. In other words it's called "choice". Because of the fragmentation, I don't have to use systemd, or pulseaudio, or snap, or Gnome desktop, or most other things I don't want to use for whatever reason. I can configure my box (or my container) mostly the way I see fit. If you want ultimate unification, choose macOS. These guys are certain that they know what you need, an…

> Because of the fragmentation, I don't have to use systemd, or pulseaudio, or snap, or Gnome desktop, or most other things I don't want to use for whatever reason. I think part of the very reason some folks like you don't like to use some of those things is their shortcomings... which likely come about in part due to the plethora of choices leading to fragmented efforts on the development side. People shift their at…

"Linux is about choice" is the most toxic and cancerous idea in the Linux world.

Linux has always been about software freedom and open source, it was never about choice. When people made it about choice, infinite fragmentation started and there's no end in sight.

Though with their shortcomings, thankfully somebody is fighting against that concept, and trying to build a stable base for everybody.

Re: Migrate Everything from Linux to BSD

#143

Post by pmlnr »

athms wrote: post #125
tlhunter wrote: post #34

I've been using Linux as a daily driver on laptops for about the last 12 years. I mostly do backend service development, having code that ultimately runs on a Linux server, so it's been quite easy for me to adopt. I would have installed BSD on one of my primary dev laptops by now, but there's one huge software compatibility missing for me: https://wiki.freebsd.org/Docker Docker's currently broken. It's not that I nee…

You can use Bhyve and run Docker in a Linux virtual machine. Docker works similarly under MacOS using the Hypervisor Framework. FreeBSD would need to radically change in order to implement Docker natively.

FreeBSD had "containers" - jails - a decade before linux: https://docs.freebsd.org/en/books/handbook/jails/

I still don't understand why Docker was not made to run on jails as well.

Re: Migrate Everything from Linux to BSD

#144

Post by mariusor »

dTal wrote: post #97
Spivak wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I swear at this point there is not a soul that really understand the low level pieces of a Linux distro fit together. systemd-resolved is a separate project from systemd whose only relation is that it’s in the same repo. It’s up to your distro builder to decide if they want to use it. And also up to your distro if they want to use the stub resolver. It’s not necessary for systemd-resolved to work. The reason they hav…

Why does it use the same repo, exactly?

Because it's built by the same people that built systmed and uses some of the low-level internal libraries from systemd (input parsing, configuration, etc) ? This is not that difficult of a conclusion to get to honestly.

Re: Migrate Everything from Linux to BSD

#145

Post by mariusor »

1_player wrote: post #142
dataflow wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because of the fragmentation, I don't have to use systemd, or pulseaudio, or snap, or Gnome desktop, or most other things I don't want to use for whatever reason. I think part of the very reason some folks like you don't like to use some of those things is their shortcomings... which likely come about in part due to the plethora of choices leading to fragmented efforts on the development side. People shift their at…

"Linux is about choice" is the most toxic and cancerous idea in the Linux world. Linux has always been about software freedom and open source, it was never about choice. When people made it about choice, infinite fragmentation started and there's no end in sight. Though with their shortcomings, thankfully somebody is fighting against that concept, and trying to build a stable base for everybody.

I'm not sure how you can put "software freedom" and "never about choice" in the same sentence to be honest. Software freedom implies without a doubt the freedom of not using software, or that of using "different" software.

Re: Migrate Everything from Linux to BSD

#146

Post by geofft »

wtfrmyinitials wrote: post #18
geofft wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the article, it sounds like it's that upstream systemd uses Google Public DNS as a default (if you don't configure a server or get one in your DHCP lease) and Firefox uses Cloudflare's DNS-over-HTTPS, which would allow those companies to see all your DNS queries.

If you’re doing DNS some company is going to see your DNS queries. So the objection is the new default choice?

(I don't agree with the objection, for exactly the reason you stated, I'm just answering the question of what it is.)

Re: Migrate Everything from Linux to BSD

#147

Post by 1_player »

mariusor wrote: post #145
1_player wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Linux is about choice" is the most toxic and cancerous idea in the Linux world. Linux has always been about software freedom and open source, it was never about choice. When people made it about choice, infinite fragmentation started and there's no end in sight. Though with their shortcomings, thankfully somebody is fighting against that concept, and trying to build a stable base for everybody.

I'm not sure how you can put "software freedom" and "never about choice" in the same sentence to be honest. Software freedom implies without a doubt the freedom of not using software, or that of using "different" software.

No, I intend software freedom in the Stallman sense. Freedom from licences, EULAs, obligations, warranties. Freedom to modify and redistribute.

Of course this leaves the door open for "choice", but it's just, in my opinion, an unfortunate side effect.

Re: Migrate Everything from Linux to BSD

#148

Post by mariusor »

1_player wrote: post #147
mariusor wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure how you can put "software freedom" and "never about choice" in the same sentence to be honest. Software freedom implies without a doubt the freedom of not using software, or that of using "different" software.

No, I intend software freedom in the Stallman sense. Freedom from licences, EULAs, obligations, warranties. Freedom to modify and redistribute. Of course this leaves the door open for "choice", but it's just, in my opinion, an unfortunate side effect.

I posit that freedom 0 of the free software definition can be interpreted to mean that one can not just not use a specific piece of software, but even make use of alternatives if they're better suited for one's purpose.

Pretending that freedom of choice about what people spend their free time on is "an unfortunate side effect", is what represents a "toxic" attitude in my opinion.

Re: Migrate Everything from Linux to BSD

#149

Post by 0942v8653 »

enriquto wrote: post #141
nine_k wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Easy answer: Gnome desktop. Red Hat produced systemd. Red Hat is the major contributor to Gnome. Gnome now refuses to run without systemd. Every major distro wants to carry Gnome, so... Well, at least some distros offer a choice. Some other distros (Alpine, popular for containers, Void, which powers my laptop) live happily without it. Various shims exist, logind exists to allow running things like Xfce without system…

> Gnome now refuses to run without systemd. Is that true? The gentoo documentation says that you can chose your init system independently of your desktop manager, and puts openrc+gnome as an example: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/GNOME/GNOME_Without_systemd/Gen... You can also install GNOME on OpenBSD, which of course does not run systemd.

Not GNOME itself, but Gnome Display Manager:

> After the transition from GNOME 2 to GNOME 3, configuring GDM is only possible through systemd as it no longer supports other init systems.

https://access.redhat.com/documentation/en-us/red_hat_enterp...

Re: Migrate Everything from Linux to BSD

#150

Post by Jkvngt »

stjohnswarts wrote: post #133
Jkvngt wrote: post #113

I’m doing this right now. Linux has gotten too large, bloated, corporate. It no longer feels like a community project and there are quite a few recent move that make me question whether or not it will be viable down the line.

You'll be back :)

I've already moved the whole office. Even have the one proprietary program that we need, Mathematica, running in Linux VMs on OpenBSD and displaying without a hitch thanks to x.org.
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