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The high price of mistrust

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Re: The high price of mistrust

#141

Post by yrimaxi »

jrexilius wrote: post #51
AndrewBissell wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've been extremely concerned with the efforts of sub-groups in our societies attacking the foundations of trust. I assume you're referring to the neocons who lied us into the war in Iraq (and keep us there to this day), the Wall Street bankers & executives who created the 2008 financial crisis and the politicians who bailed them out at the people's expense, the military/intelligence and tech industry figures who s…

No, actually I'm referring to groups on the left _and_ right. While popularizing the attacking of shared society and our systems foundations did start with the counter-culture left in the 60s, it has certainly become a bipartisan effort in recent decades.

Chomsky has explained that the counter-culture of the 60’s was viewed as the “crisis of democracy” by the Trilateral Commission. An excess of democracy: special interests like women, the elderly, environmentalists, ethnic minorities, and so on were trying to enter the public arena. In short: the general population.

(What is a non-special interest? Business interests.)

It is completely illogical to immediately conclude that people who are complaining and pointing out that things are not right are necessarily themselves the cause of all that strife. Maybe they were responding to antecedent causes?

Re: The high price of mistrust

#143

Post by tgsovlerkhgsel »

yamrzou wrote: post #88

The breakdown of trust in a society is a vicious cycle that seems hard to break. When a mistrust dynamic sets in, how can it be reversed?

Putting in extra effort to actively demonstrate trustworthiness.

That means when leaders are speaking, they need to monitor how their words are perceived, and resolve misunderstandings quickly.

Also, overcommunicate and share evidence, and be honest and direct.

Re: The high price of mistrust

#144

Post by mcguire »

medium_burrito wrote: post #116

When the poors see their standard of living decline (exporting jobs, expensive real estate, shitty schools, ineffective government) all while the rich get richer, yeah, the basic social contract between the classes evaporates. You may trust your neighbor, but that has zero bearing on society at large. Society only works if the different classes trust each other not to screw each other out of existence. We're seeing t…

"You may trust your neighbor, but that has zero bearing on society at large."

On the contrary, if you don't trust your neighbor, you have no basis for trusting anyone. It's the foundation for any other trust relationships. As for the relationships between classes, that also relies on trust in things larger than classes: trust in the legal and social framework.

Re: The high price of mistrust

#145

Post by xyzzyz »

iso1631 wrote: post #133
misterbwong wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds overly-simplistic but the solution is to build trust again. Unfortunately, the incentives that rule our society are pushing us away from this. We need to align incentives properly if we're going to have any hope of building trust again. ex: 1. The internet, as a technology, is amazing but functions as a possible bullhorn for everyone, without filter. It does not reward the best possible or most positive idea,…

> Possibly unpopular view: Encouraging religious participation would go a long way to help. Whether you believe or do not, religion helps align society away from purely individualistic pursuits and more towards a "corporate good". How does that work out in 3rd world countries where there's high levels of religious membership and high levels of angry young men https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Importance_of_religion_by_co…

> There seems to be a correlation between countries with corrupt untrusted governments and high religious importance.

Yes, when the system is very corrupt, you need to have some alternative way to build community, cohesion, and stability.

In communist Poland, the Church has been the center of the opposition to the communist system. The system has been very corrupt, but people found solace, community and the support in the Church. When John Paul II was elected the Pope, the Polish people were reinvigorated, and rallied around him, creating Solidarity movement etc. The communist system has recognized the power of Church, and fought it viciously: for example, it murdered Jerzy Popieluszko, a priest famous for his association with Solidarity. This made Polish people rally around the Church even more.

After the fall of communism, the Church no longer needed to provide this form of support, and over time, as the civil society has improved, the Church has used the legitimacy and respect it has built during communism to push its own agenda, which in past years has been rather divisive instead of uniting. Religion is not universal social good: its value depends on both the historical circumstance, and the actual content of practice and attitudes of leadership. It can be extremely beneficial, uniting society in ways impossible otherwise, but it can also be extremely damaging, to a deadly degree.

Re: The high price of mistrust

#146

Post by tgsovlerkhgsel »

bsenftner wrote: post #125
yamrzou wrote: post #88

The breakdown of trust in a society is a vicious cycle that seems hard to break. When a mistrust dynamic sets in, how can it be reversed?

A method to address mistrust is to initiate "virtue circles": do people unrequested favors, without expectation of any return. Just do it; it actually feels good. And it is infectious . Others start doing it too, and double so when you subtly exhibit the joy of helping others without any expectations. Once more than 3 people in any social circle start this type of positive interaction, a positive culture shift occurs…

And make sure there is space for people to do this, and reward it where possible.

Companies are moving more and more towards metrics, which means the nice guy that helps everyone out but isn't as great with his metrics gets screwed, vs. the asshole who optimizes only for the metrics while screwing everyone over gets ahead. Once the nice guy has seen this happen over and over, even the nicest person breaks, gives in, and starts playing by the rules of the system, which by design incentivize working towards the measurable goals.

Re: The high price of mistrust

#147

Post by umvi »

SaberTail wrote: post #128
umvi wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> those proxies are the sole source of truth, which makes gaming them more important than actually being productive. Reminds me of a short story I read, which I can't find now. The gist of it was about this person reading a memo or something at work on their computer, and the person wasn't actually reading it, they were just scrolling down the page and occasionally scrolling back up to pretend to re-read paragraphs b…

It's not a short story, but maybe you're remembering a bit from "Snow Crash"? > Y.T's mom pulls up the new memo, checks the time, and starts reading it. The estimated reading time is 15.62 minutes... Y.T.'s mom decides to spend between fourteen and fifteen minutes reading the memo. It's better for younger workers to spend too long, to show they're careful, not cocky. It's better for older workers to go a little fast,…

Yes, that's exactly what I was thinking of. I didn't know it was part of a book, I think I originally read this paragraph on someone's blog. Thanks for sharing the original source!

Re: The high price of mistrust

#148

Post by victorpr »

vaduz wrote: post #98
Ozzie_osman wrote: post #12

This applies to the workplace too, not just society at large. That's why if I'm ever at a company where I feel like I am mistrusted, or I mistrust the people I work with, I do what I can to leave. Not only is it an unpleasant environment to work in, but it feels predictive of failure.

Excluding sole traders and cooperatives (and sometimes even including those, as the easiest way to lose friends is said to be to go into business together), it is entirely natural for the company and coworkers not to trust each other, not fully, as the goals and incentives of the company are not the same as goals and incentives of the employees. Your goal isn't likely to be to subordinate your life entirely to what t…

While true for many (the majority, even), it's not impossible for company-employee relationships to be symbiotic as well, not every company is like you describe.

Re: The high price of mistrust

#149

Post by cle »

iso1631 wrote: post #133
misterbwong wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds overly-simplistic but the solution is to build trust again. Unfortunately, the incentives that rule our society are pushing us away from this. We need to align incentives properly if we're going to have any hope of building trust again. ex: 1. The internet, as a technology, is amazing but functions as a possible bullhorn for everyone, without filter. It does not reward the best possible or most positive idea,…

> Possibly unpopular view: Encouraging religious participation would go a long way to help. Whether you believe or do not, religion helps align society away from purely individualistic pursuits and more towards a "corporate good". How does that work out in 3rd world countries where there's high levels of religious membership and high levels of angry young men https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Importance_of_religion_by_co…

It's not hard to imagine confounding variables that could be influencing both, instead of a direct causal relationship.

Re: The high price of mistrust

#150

Post by throwaway0a5e »

mcguire wrote: post #144
medium_burrito wrote: post #116

When the poors see their standard of living decline (exporting jobs, expensive real estate, shitty schools, ineffective government) all while the rich get richer, yeah, the basic social contract between the classes evaporates. You may trust your neighbor, but that has zero bearing on society at large. Society only works if the different classes trust each other not to screw each other out of existence. We're seeing t…

" You may trust your neighbor, but that has zero bearing on society at large. " On the contrary, if you don't trust your neighbor, you have no basis for trusting anyone. It's the foundation for any other trust relationships. As for the relationships between classes, that also relies on trust in things larger than classes: trust in the legal and social framework.

Measuring trust requires a threat model of sorts.

I trust my neighbors not to steal my stuff. I don't trust them not to narc on me. If they do narc on my I trust the city to realize that's a dumb use of resources. But I don't trust the state to be so smart.

How often have you heard something along the lines of "I'm not worried my kids will be kidnapped, I'm worried some jerk will call the cops if I let them walk to the park on their own"?

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