Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters • Hacker News Board

Re: Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

#141

Post by JustFinishedBSG » Sun, Jan 10, 2021, 10:16 AM UTC

_Understated_ wrote: post #125

dragonwriter wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is the exact situation in which facial recognition is very bad. No, it's not. > Imagine the stasi had it? Yes, the problem there is the Stasi, not the technology. There is literally no technology that the Stasi having would be a good thing, including pen and paper. Or things so basic we don't tend to think of them as “technology”, like, say, language.

> There is literally no technology that the Stasi having would be a good thing, including pen and paper. Not sure I agree with that analogy... pen and paper doesn't scale! Having the ability to do something at global scale, like facial recognition or real-time tracking and saying "Honest! We won't use it for dodgy things" is not sufficient... It'd be naieve to say I'd rather it didn't exist, however that cat is out o…

Everything scale if you are evil enough. Even doing things manually, alone.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasily_Blokhin#Role_in_the_Kat...

Re: Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

#142

Post by wpietri » Sun, Jan 10, 2021, 10:24 AM UTC

mmmBacon wrote: post #17

ondrek wrote: post #5

It seems that face recognition could be as dangerous as country laws are. China's social credit system is a strong mirror to its government. The Black Mirror scenario with all those people scared to even talk publicly could (if once real) be strongly country specific, if we get to the point, where life drastically depend on ethics of technology laws.

I think we already have a system in the West where people are afraid to speak openly; it’s referred to as cancel culture but exists elsewhere. The difference is that it’s not a formal government system but more of a mob social justice system.

Oh, please. People have been "afraid to speak openly" for all of America's history. The notion that there's something drastically different about "cancel culture" in terms of severity is historically ignorant. Look at the comedian Lenny Bruce's arrests for obscenity, for example. Or the anticommunist panic of the 1950s. To say nothing of how women were controlled up to and after suffrage: deprivation of rights, marginalization, beatings, and rape. Ditto the free speech of black people, who faced lynching for as little as whistling.

Social actions will always have social consequences; that's a necessary corollary to freedom of speech. What's different today is that social conservatives and especially the radical right are starting to experience those same social consequences. If people are going to use their freedom of speech and association to, say, support Nazis, then other people are free to use their freedoms of speech and association in response.

Re: Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

#143

Post by octoberfranklin » Sun, Jan 10, 2021, 10:32 AM UTC

jusonchan81 wrote: post #53

Isn’t it possible to use cell phone location to identify exactly who went inside the Capitol buildings? It’s something that the police system uses anyways and I guess it must be being used. What happened was a shame, but I truly hope this doesn’t evolve and make it worse than what it is already.

I would hope people were putting their phones in airplane mode, and telling those around them to do the same.

Re: Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

#144

Post by rebuilder » Sun, Jan 10, 2021, 10:33 AM UTC

shuntress wrote: post #117

zozbot234 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The sad thing is precisely that no-one cares about "re-integrating" proponents of right-leaning views "to society". Everyone is talking about forcibly deplatforming them all out of society which, even if successful, will only make them far more marginalized and far more open to dangerous, violent extremism. Is this really what we need? We've had enough divisiveness already, so why not try a more constructive approach…

>Everyone is talking about forcibly deplatforming them Expulsion can be appropriate for dealing with people who harm society. It should be used with caution but does have its place. De-integrating (so to speak) may sometimes be a required first step before effective "re-integrating" can occur.

I don't see a way for expulsion to happen. Segregation in some sense, maybe. But that usually runs into the anti-insurrection problem where suppression becomes repression and breeds contempt, strengthening the factions being suppressed.

Re: Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

#145

Post by octoberfranklin » Sun, Jan 10, 2021, 10:34 AM UTC

mike_d wrote: post #120

jusonchan81 wrote: post #53

Isn’t it possible to use cell phone location to identify exactly who went inside the Capitol buildings? It’s something that the police system uses anyways and I guess it must be being used. What happened was a shame, but I truly hope this doesn’t evolve and make it worse than what it is already.

First, law enforcement never talks publicly about this capability because it only works if the bad guys don't think about it. Secondly, all the major carriers deployed temporary cell sites to the area in advance of the inauguration which likely has complicated and delayed the requests.

> it only works if the bad guys don't think about it

I think the horse has left that particular barn.

Although, of course, the barrel of badguy-stupidity is bottomless, so I suppose they'll keep catching the dumber and dumber ones pretty much forever...

Re: Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

#146

Post by cforrester » Sun, Jan 10, 2021, 10:37 AM UTC

zozbot234 wrote: post #104

throwaway346434 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This event is highly comparable to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer_Hall_Putsch - Attempted coup - Radicalized and misinformed supporters (majority) with an extremist, armed element (minority) - Extremely dangerous moment for free and fair elections in the west What would the world have looked like if in 1923, the disaffected germans who took part in that were identified en masse; and serious efforts were made to r…

The sad thing is precisely that no-one cares about "re-integrating" proponents of right-leaning views "to society". Everyone is talking about forcibly deplatforming them all out of society which, even if successful, will only make them far more marginalized and far more open to dangerous, violent extremism. Is this really what we need? We've had enough divisiveness already, so why not try a more constructive approach…

It seems misguided to suggest that deplatforming is not a constructive approach. Platforms which are tolerant of extremism enable extremists to more-easily connect with each other, develop more-unified messaging, and reach non-radicalized people at much lower social and financial costs. In effect, providing a platform for extremism is a divisive act.

Re: Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

#147

Post by busterarm » Sun, Jan 10, 2021, 10:37 AM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #44

eplanit wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but what's frightening now is that the mob/SJWs are aligned (mostly) with the new administration, whose party has swept up all power in the government.

> whose party has swept up all power in the government. Did most of the federal judiciary die or resign? Was the Constitution amended to remove supermajority to requirements for certain actions?

The federal judiciary has been taking criticism from both parties for decades now where both sides think that the courts have abdicated their responsibilities and let Executive authority run amok.

Of course that criticism is never consistent temporally, and always depends on which party is in which office and doing the criticism.

Either way, I'm not particularly excited about leaving things up to the courts.

Re: Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

#148

Post by renewiltord » Sun, Jan 10, 2021, 10:37 AM UTC

jtsiskin wrote: post #80

renewiltord wrote: post #67

Facial Recognition Tech is obviously good if used by competent people: Narrows the number of haystacks to search for needle => Reduced resources required for successful search => More crimes prosecuted. Problem occurs when: * Users of FRT assume all in haystack are needles * Crimes on book must not be universally prosecuted The first part can't be helped. US Police, like most US government jobs, is a rest-and-take-it…

I really can’t tell if this is sarcasm, satire, or serious. I think satire?

I get this a lot with this viewpoint but I've passed through the other ones to get to this one.

If it helps, I am familiar with the Veil of Ignorance, the Categorical Imperative, and every other basic tool of ethics you can think of.

Re: Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

#149

Post by t-writescode » Sun, Jan 10, 2021, 10:37 AM UTC

DangerousPie wrote: post #39

jackson1442 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problems come from when it is hailed as perfect and arrests are made solely on a facial recognition result[0]. Facial recognition has also time and time again proven to be racially biased[1][2]. Not to mention how easy it is to create a surveillance state with facial recognition[3]. [0] https://threatpost.com/lawsuit-claims-flawed-facial-recognit... [1] https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/19/tech/facial-recognition-study…

Nobody is suggesting arresting anyone solely based on facial recognition.

Have you seen the sort of things that get people thrown away in prison for murder for decades? Absolutely flimsy evidence like an insane prosecutor that thinks some guy can go to a ball game and flee as fast as possible to go kill a person and then come back?!

Yeah... I don't trust that.

Re: Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

#150

Post by itronitron » Sun, Jan 10, 2021, 10:39 AM UTC

zozbot234 wrote: post #104

throwaway346434 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This event is highly comparable to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer_Hall_Putsch - Attempted coup - Radicalized and misinformed supporters (majority) with an extremist, armed element (minority) - Extremely dangerous moment for free and fair elections in the west What would the world have looked like if in 1923, the disaffected germans who took part in that were identified en masse; and serious efforts were made to r…

The sad thing is precisely that no-one cares about "re-integrating" proponents of right-leaning views "to society". Everyone is talking about forcibly deplatforming them all out of society which, even if successful, will only make them far more marginalized and far more open to dangerous, violent extremism. Is this really what we need? We've had enough divisiveness already, so why not try a more constructive approach…

I think a lot of people care about re-integrating those with right-leaning views to society. It is important for them to express their own concerns in their own words instead of just joining in various egomaniacs' power fantasies.

As much as they hate the far left, I believe that progressives such as Bernie and AOC are actually far better for them, and everyone they know, than the current GOP leadership.