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Arrests of Hong Kong democrats shows why EU must reject China investment

hongkongwatch.org

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Re: Arrests of Hong Kong democrats shows why EU must reject China investment

#141

Post by ndiscussion »

seizethecheese wrote: post #73
publicola1990 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For a long time American policy was also that these "unfair" treaties made by Colonial Powers should go. Roosevelt was very much of that opinion that these treaties should be abbrograted in the aftermath of World War II, and his views did lead to some differences of opinion with Churchill. Infact all other concessions except HK and Macau were returned to Chinese about the end of the war.

We probably need to return California to Mexico by your logic.

We're still the ones pointing the guns in that scenario.

Re: Arrests of Hong Kong democrats shows why EU must reject China investment

#142

Post by minikites »

z5h wrote: post #98
minikites wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything is political. If you don't think so, it means you're protected by at least some kind of privilege. Rather than denying that, think about what advantages you have in your life that insulate you from the struggles of other people.

Everything is A LITTLE BIT political. And we reserve the right on when to focus on the political or non political aspect. My pancake breakfast has ties to unions, lobbyists, international trade. Guess what, I’m just going to eat my pancakes.

>we reserve the right on when to focus on the political or non political aspect

This is a perfect illustration of the privilege I was talking about, thank you.

Re: Arrests of Hong Kong democrats shows why EU must reject China investment

#143

Post by baybal2 »

411111111111111 wrote: post #129
baybal2 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The west needs to sanction China. Do you understand that the West mostly sanctions itself when it tries to sanction a country which: 1. Has surreal trade surplus with it. 2. Supports nearly entire consumer spending part of your economy. 3. Provides most of your light industry goods. 4. Buys a big chunk of your debt. This is why I was saying that China can easily do a blunder, after a blunder, and still outmatch the…

Isn't the point of sanctions to make the offending product so expensive that other options become more viable? They would've to be hard enough to make it more cost effective to create a new production line in another nation over buying the sanctioned goods. Not without consequences for the consumer and political suicide if attempted... but technically possible

> Isn't the point of sanctions to make the offending product so expensive that other options become more viable?

The key word here is other options. Are there any?

China on other hand has many other options than the US market. They will have no problem redirecting things like household goods, and other light industry products to other markets without impact to its industrial capacity.

That's what has happened in 2008, and indeed worked marvelously for them in the end.

When the American economy was flopped, they simply took all those luxuries destined for sale to America, dumped them on developing markets, and adjusted quality-quantity balance for this target market.

Re: Arrests of Hong Kong democrats shows why EU must reject China investment

#144

Post by jcytong »

dragonsh wrote: post #126
loceng wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course the CCP used those photos as propaganda to reenforce the arguably false narrative presented to mainland Chinese that the CIA was behind the resistance. The psychological aspect of warfare never ceases to amaze me.

Not everything is a propaganda there is some truth to it, given Hong Kong is the only ground left for US to try to destabilise China to slow its growth. This is also the reason China took hardline on Hong Kong as they see it as strategic weak spot. Moreover actions of China in Hong Kong are supported by majority of people in China. This tyranny of majority exists in democracy too, what happened in Kashmir is 100 time…

It's mostly CCP propaganda though if you actually talk to HK people and see how the majority of them tried to work within the system to "make the change" since the early 90s and fight for what was promised in the Basic Law[1] which was drafted by a committee with 36 representatives from China and 23 from HK. It promised that the Chief Executive of HK and its legislative council to be formed by an election.[2]

The Chief Executive election has been delayed for 2 decades requiring the CCP to "pre-filter" candidates which the public rejected.

The legislative council election has been controlled by disqualifying candidates as well as the mass arrest of 53 pro-democracy candidates for simply organizing the primaries and engaging in debates. [3]

TLDR; China wasn't as strong in 90s so took a softer stance. Later decided to go back on its words so had to find ways to control the elections or the results.

> No real death in over an year of violent protests by police firing in Hong Kong vs 5 deaths in capitol building siege speaks volumes about the professionalism with which Hong Kong police handled the protests.

This is not true. After witnessing the 2019 movement and the real police behavior captured on live tv/news[4], I have a much better understanding of the Stanford prisoner experiment.

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_Basic_Law [2]https://www.basiclaw.gov.hk/en/basiclawtext/chapter_4.html [3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Hong_Kong_Legislative_Cou... [4]https://tl.hkrev.info/en/police-timeline/

Re: Arrests of Hong Kong democrats shows why EU must reject China investment

#145

Post by newsclues »

arcticbull wrote: post #139
MrRiddle wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If breaking a treaty is in best interest and situation permits it, it will probably get broken. Annexing Canada is not very practical at this point is it? Breaking a bunch of treaties made with Native Americans, sure why not. If one day situation permits it, Canada will become 5X US state.

Sure if you use your imagination and a pathological attitude anything can happen!

The laws of physics are inflexible.

The laws of man, including international law, treaties and borders, are made up and can be change with enough will or force.

Re: Arrests of Hong Kong democrats shows why EU must reject China investment

#146

Post by CogitoCogito »

knolax wrote: post #113
CogitoCogito wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Counterpoint. Everyone I meet in San Francisco is against colonialism. > Have you considered that Hong Kong is part of China, was taken as a colony, Democracy was introduced and by supporting a different system of government, in a country that isn't yours, is a form of internalized colonialism? > Our country is literally falling apart. > Our biggest problem in the west is our tendency to export our problems. China…

> People have this idea that an enormous unified China is somehow natural. The linguistic variation of Chinese is larger than the romance languages today. China being some unified country speaking Mandarin is about as natural as Rome coming back today and enforcing Italian on all its previous empire. More drivel by someone who likely can't speak or read any dialect of Chinese and has no idea of history. Rome has been…

> Jesus Christ how many times do I have to point out that China is linguistically unified and that the Hong Kongese have no significant cultural differences to justify independence. The burden of proof lies on you to disprove me. Countries don't stay unified for centuries without a linguistic and cultural common ground.

So basically you're just stating opinions as facts and then claiming it's my job to disprove these "facts". Okay fine like I said in my last post we've made our positions clear and I don't see any point in going back and forth. Believe what you wish.

> And I can't reply to your comments because of rate limiting on HackerNews. No need to be extremely passive aggressive about it.

There's nothing "extremely passive aggressive" about pointing out that your posting style is extremely hard to follow. Maybe you should consider posting less frequently so that you're not rate-limited? Anyway I'll stop this discussion here so that you can focus on all the other posts you're apparently making. Maybe the extra bandwidth will allow you to post normally in the other conversations at least.

Re: Arrests of Hong Kong democrats shows why EU must reject China investment

#147

Post by arcticbull »

ndiscussion wrote: post #141
seizethecheese wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We probably need to return California to Mexico by your logic.

We're still the ones pointing the guns in that scenario.

Well in that case, you’re arguing that since you lost the war of 1812 when you tried to invade Canada, now that you’ve got the bigger guns you would just go for a quick stroll up north.

Re: Arrests of Hong Kong democrats shows why EU must reject China investment

#148

Post by arcticbull »

newsclues wrote: post #145
arcticbull wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure if you use your imagination and a pathological attitude anything can happen!

The laws of physics are inflexible. The laws of man, including international law, treaties and borders, are made up and can be change with enough will or force.

I mean of course they can but that doesn’t mean it’s the right thing to do, or even productive towards a country’s ends, or beneficial to then international community. Peace relies on honoring agreements. If you see countries start breaking their obligations, stand back and go “whelp that’s guns for ya” I’d call that a pretty regressive take on international relations.

Re: Arrests of Hong Kong democrats shows why EU must reject China investment

#149

Post by rrrrrrrrrrrryan »

joe433343 wrote: post #110
ceilingcorner wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember seeing them waving American flags during protests, presumably as a reference to liberty. I thought, “I wish we lived up to their perceptions of us.”

As a not a native American. The one thing that i admire most about America is its importance to liberty as part of the constitution and as a main stream culture.

FYI the term "Native American" usually refers to the indigenous people of America. You could maybe refer to yourself as "non-American," a "first-gen American," or an "American immigrant," depending on what you are and what you're trying to say.

Re: Arrests of Hong Kong democrats shows why EU must reject China investment

#150

Post by baybal2 »

anovikov wrote: post #128
baybal2 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maoism is linked to the traits of Chinese national character A virulent strain of communism, a disease that plagued Europe for close to a century, and even managed to put up roots of its more violent forms in the New World. You say Maoisim-Communism is only a Chinese problem? Not convincing at all.

Soviet Communism (Bolshevism) WAS a virulent strain: millions upon millions of even comfortably living people in developed countries wholeheartedly believed in it, and developing world submitted to it without a second thought. Soviets did not take Africa by force in 1960s - they didn't have nearly enough long range force projection capability - they made Africans want communism. Same in Southeast Asia. Maoism is noth…

Maoism:

DPRK, Indonesian Maoist insurgency, Malaysian Maoist subversion, Singapore coup attempt, Burma, Laos, Campuchia, Nepal, India Naxalite insurgency, Albania, South Yemen, South Peru insurgency, Brazil Araguaia Guerrilla War, ~10 African countries

Vanilla communism: USSR, Yugoslavia, Vietnam, Cuba, 5 African countries.

Compare.

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