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Why do people resist the idea that carbs are worse than fat?

scientificamerican.com

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Re: Why do people resist the idea that carbs are worse than fat?

#141

Post by dexterchief »

tokenadult wrote: post #77

What's more radically different between people who are healthy and people who are not is how much they exercise rather than what they eat. There is much more worldwide cultural variation in what people eat, and much more individual variation within each culture, among healthy people than there is variation in the exercise level of healthy people. But seeking to change diet to change health sounds easier than getting…

I'll absolutely agree that its damn hard to do control what people are eating in experiments, but I disagree that exercise plays the role you say.

You can eat something in a single meal that will take SEVERAL HOURS on a treadmill to burn. It is incredibly easy for the number of calories you need to burn to pass the number of hours possible to exercise.

Re: Why do people resist the idea that carbs are worse than fat?

#142

Post by endtime »

o_nate wrote: post #140
endtime wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point isn't to eat what cavemen ate, it's to look at what their bodies were optimized for and eat things with similar components. Dairy is a very good source of saturated fat, especially for a vegetarian like me.

And the average life expectancy of a caveman was what, maybe 20 years? Cavemen perished too soon to have to worry about the diet-related health problems that we deal with today.

Ancient life expectancy numbers are misleading because of very high infant mortality. And even if that weren't the case, your reasoning is faulty. I have more or less the same gut as a caveman, so it makes sense to eat what they were optimized for. The fact that we have surgery and antibiotics and aren't at significant risk of being eaten by saber-toothed tigers isn't relevant to diet.

Re: Why do people resist the idea that carbs are worse than fat?

#143

Post by mixmastamyk »

They are not worse, just different. People are desperate for a single villain to blame for their fat asses.

Maintain a balanced diet, keep the total calories down, stay away from cheap processed food, get exercise. It's very simple, but unfortunately there is not a single villain, so people resist.

Re: Why do people resist the idea that carbs are worse than fat?

#144

Post by ajscherer »

jdminhbg wrote: post #122
ajscherer wrote: post #79

I'm always surprised at the theories people are willing to believe about obesity, particularly people on hn. It really sounds reasonable to so many of you that the cause of the obesity epidemic is people actually listening to nutrition advice from the medical establishment and following the food pyramid? My view of what has happened is this: technologies and ingredients were invented by food manufacturers over the pa…

"It really sounds reasonable to so many of you that the cause of the obesity epidemic is people actually listening to nutrition advice from the medical establishment and following the food pyramid?" Who said this? The anti-nutritional establishment claim being made here is that the incorrect demonization of fat led people to replace dietary fat with carbohydrates (see, e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SnackWells ).…

The surprise is genuine, and I didn't include any anecdotes in my post.

The research I have seen indicates that high carbohydrate intake (particularly sugars) is more likely to make someone obese than high fat intake. The research I have seen in no way indicates that the reason people select high sugar foods is because those foods are believed to be healthy by virtue of their low fat content.

No doubt companies use "low fat" as a marketing tool. The same can be said of "low carb", "low sodium", "sugar free", "all natural" and any number of other phrases that sound healthy. I don't think this is a significant factor in the obesity epidemic. People aren't choosing Snackwells in preference to a handful of walnuts (to they extent that they are choosing Snackwells; I've never seen anyone purchase them). People are choosing Snackwells in preference to Chips Ahoy.

I think this idea that the dietary advice of 20-30 years ago (low fat) is the primary cause of the obesity epidemic is the result of a desire for a dramatically satisfying narrative (Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.).

Ponder this: the Atkins / Low-carb craze started over 10 years ago. All the advice I see in online fitness forums acknowledges the value of high-protien low-carb eating. "Low-carb" is becoming a ubiquitous phrase on food packaging. Yet the obesity epidemic continues unchecked. To me this indicates that the people who choose foods based on macronutrients are choosing low-carb, but that most people are not involving macronutrients in their food decisions.

Re: Why do people resist the idea that carbs are worse than fat?

#145

Post by jpr »

DavidBishop wrote: post #33

People resist the idea because the answer is too simple. "Fats" are better than "Carbs". So lard is better than a banana? Ugh. It's not the broad category of "Fats" vs "Carbs". It's the TYPE of food. Eat good food. Period. Not something made in a factory. Twinkies: out. Soda: out. Standard pizza with refined grains and loads of cheese: out. Eat healthy food: the right meats, fruits, vegetables, whole grains and lots…

> the right meats

There is no such thing as "wrong meat".

Re: Why do people resist the idea that carbs are worse than fat?

#146

Post by o_nate »

endtime wrote: post #142
o_nate wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the average life expectancy of a caveman was what, maybe 20 years? Cavemen perished too soon to have to worry about the diet-related health problems that we deal with today.

Ancient life expectancy numbers are misleading because of very high infant mortality. And even if that weren't the case, your reasoning is faulty. I have more or less the same gut as a caveman, so it makes sense to eat what they were optimized for. The fact that we have surgery and antibiotics and aren't at significant risk of being eaten by saber-toothed tigers isn't relevant to diet.

The human digestive system evolved over millions of years, and there is not much that is known with certainty about the human diet over that span of time - however, it is known that humans have a better ability to process starchy foods than other primates. So the assumption that a 'paleo' diet wouldn't include lots of starch is not based on science. Take a look at this article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6983330.stm

Re: Why do people resist the idea that carbs are worse than fat?

#147

Post by jdietrich »

david_p wrote: post #97
ajscherer wrote: post #79

I'm always surprised at the theories people are willing to believe about obesity, particularly people on hn. It really sounds reasonable to so many of you that the cause of the obesity epidemic is people actually listening to nutrition advice from the medical establishment and following the food pyramid? My view of what has happened is this: technologies and ingredients were invented by food manufacturers over the pa…

While I have to agree with you, your theory fails to explain why people in Europe (who have the same access to calorie dense and convenient food) are less obese (in proportion) than North Americans. I believe that culinary customs AND some additives used in industrial food play an important role. Just check out High Fructose Corn Syrup : this is in very product in the USA and is (almost) never used in Europe.

Ask for a coke in almost any bar or cafe in Europe and you'll be served a 200ml bottle. Buy a portion of french fries from a snack bar and you'll usually get a palm-sized portion on a paper tray.

French schools serve real food on real plates - a portion of moules marinière or escargot would be completely familiar fare to most french kids. Even lardy Britain is changing school meals from mere fuel to an integral part of a child's education.

American food culture is one of abundance - eating large quantities of the richest foods. The humblest of American meals are based around meat in great quantity. Italians still eat a prima piatti of something cheap and filling before a relatively small secondi piatti of meat or fish, a cultural legacy from harder times when meat of any sort was a treat.

The tide is certainly turning and obesity rates are soaring, but the difference in rates is largely accounted for by cultural difference. The French rightly see it as a crisis that students don't want to sit down for meals anymore. Most of Europe sees food as a vitally important political and social issue.

Re: Why do people resist the idea that carbs are worse than fat?

#148

Post by JanezStupar »

watmough wrote: post #125
adw wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your portions are bigger. (Seriously.)

For myself and my wife, typical US serving sizes constitute 3 meals, though nowadays, we generally only eat out occasionally, and at local non-chain restaurants that serve decent quality food.

Anecdotally - I'm from europe and when I was in the US I only ate one meal a day. I simply didn't feel hungry for a whole day after a typical American meal.

Re: Why do people resist the idea that carbs are worse than fat?

#149

Post by jodrellblank »

dhughes wrote: post #112
david_p wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I have to agree with you, your theory fails to explain why people in Europe (who have the same access to calorie dense and convenient food) are less obese (in proportion) than North Americans. I believe that culinary customs AND some additives used in industrial food play an important role. Just check out High Fructose Corn Syrup : this is in very product in the USA and is (almost) never used in Europe.

I'd say "people in Europe" is way too general, I'm sure there are regions such as the UK where obesity is as bad as the US. I've dealt with vendors from southern France and Western Italy and when they come here they are shocked at portion sizes and how much pop people drink, it's all anyone drinks. Even I see the difference from many years go portions are huge even people are huge, it's hard to find clothing that isn…

The fridge at work was full of half bottles of pop because people couldn't drink their 600ml beverages in one sitting but gradually over the next month or two people adjusted and now drink the entire 600ml in one sitting almost double. HFCS or not who is to blame for that? The person drinking it.

The person drinking it is "to blame" for what, precisely? Being a creature which can adjust to its environment? Why does any blame need assigning? Who benefits from assigning any blame?

Re: Why do people resist the idea that carbs are worse than fat?

#150

Post by forensic »

jinushaun wrote: post #46
danssig wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The interesting thing about this whole episode is that it serves as a wonderful illustration of the self-correcting nature of the scientific method. This is actually not very good PR for science. The wonderful illustration here is that after billions of dollars and millions of lives we realized we were wrong? What system couldn't do that? To me, what this actually illustrates is the mistaken way we use science today…

The problem isn't science or the scientific method. It's marketers and salesmen (laypersons) that take one scientific study and go crazy with it. The studies themselves are probably littered with probabilities, statistics and caution conclusions. That doesn't work when you're trying to sell snake oil. Just look at the whole anti-oxidant craze with cranberries, pomegranate and acai berries. Suddenly people are buying…

You haven't looked into the scientific bungling behind this particular issue.

It was not a political failure, it was a flat out scientific failure.

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