Facebook's advertising integrity chief leaves company • Hacker News Board

Re: Facebook's advertising integrity chief leaves company

#141

Post by spanktheuser » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 6:53 PM UTC

cs702 wrote: post #56

As a corporation, Facebook truly seems to be trying to improve its behavior for the benefit of society at large, but the company is finding it very difficult to do The Right Thing, because it would reduce future revenue growth, shrink long-term profitability, and hurt the company's competitive standing against the many other companies that are trying to eat Facebook's lunch every day. In the extreme, Facebook's choic…

It's almost as if capitalism requires outcomes which are exploitative. Whether that is the labor force, the environment, minority populations, civil society, population health.

Too bad no one has written a book or three looking into this. I'd read it.

Re: Facebook's advertising integrity chief leaves company

#142

Post by blackbrokkoli » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 6:54 PM UTC

izzytcp wrote: post #20

Who gives a sh*t? Why is this even shared here? HackerNews needs to get back to Engineering please. And, what the hell is Chief of Advertising Integrity ...

I will be first in line to cynically complain about inappropriate topics on HN, but why do you think this particular post is irrelevant?

Software culture is partly hacker culture, and Facebook is probably one of the most visible showcases of this culture - and therefore somewhat worthy of discussion on HackerNews, wouldn't you agree?

Re: Facebook's advertising integrity chief leaves company

#143

Post by Smaug123 » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 6:54 PM UTC

wpietri wrote: post #54

mlthoughts2018 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pulled straight out of the Moral Mazes playbook, chapter on “dexterity with symbols.”

Oh, interesting! I hadn't heard of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_Mazes At this point, its research is nearly 40 years out of date. Is it still worth reading? And are there more up-to-date versions?

Zvi Mowshowitz talks a lot about it, starting at https://thezvi.wordpress.com/2019/05/30/quotes-from-moral-ma... (main sequence page https://thezvi.wordpress.com/2020/05/23/mazes-sequence-summa...). I found his sequence valuable.

Re: Facebook's advertising integrity chief leaves company

#144

Post by Cullinet » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 6:56 PM UTC

a3n wrote: post #92

ashleshbiradar wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what company has integrity? not trying to normalize bad things, but seriously, what profit-driven thing has integrity?

One place I would look is some, but not all, medical device companies. Making devices that are helpful and not lethal is motivational and fulfilling for employees, and great PR. Disclosure: I worked at such a company, and have much respect for the care and capability of almost everyone I knew.

One of the most highly moral and conscientious doctors I was lucky enough to attend school with is now a medical equipment director having been a incredibly young board member of a major American pharma Corp. I definitely agree with your views here.

Re: Facebook's advertising integrity chief leaves company

#145

Post by dylan604 » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 6:56 PM UTC

dcgudeman wrote: post #28

absolutelyrad wrote: post #5

"Chief of Advertising Integrity" does anyone take that title seriously? Forget advertising, Facebook and it's CEO himself has no integrity.

Honest question, what did Mark Zuckerberg do that makes you think he has “no integrity”?

The Zuck says that privacy is a thing of the past, yet he buys all of the houses around his so he can have private home life.

Re: Facebook's advertising integrity chief leaves company

#146

Post by cs702 » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 6:57 PM UTC

noahtallen wrote: post #129

cs702 wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine yourself as the CEO of a manufacturer that pollutes rivers, and you sincerely want to stop polluting, but if you stop polluting, the company's costs would increase to the point it would no longer be able to compete against all the other companies that continue polluting -- and they're trying to eat your lunch you every day. So, if you stop polluting you would quickly lose relevance, be forced to shut down pla…

I think as many companies have started to do today, one can spin green manufacturing as a PR thing, and possibly market your product towards customers who are willing to pay more for greener manufacturing practices. Along the way, hopefully you could invest in green manufacturing improvements to make the tech cheaper at scale. I don’t think it has to be an a or b situation. I think the best and brightest could solve…

> I don’t think it has to be an a or b situation. I think the best and brightest could solve the problem without decimating their profits.

I hope you're right! But so far, it appears no one at Facebook has figured out how to escape this "tyranny of horrible choices."

> I think the problem partially is maximizing revenue at the cost of everything else.

I disagree. I think the problem, from the perspective of Facebook, is figuring out how to do The Right Thing while remaining relevant and competitive against the many companies trying to dislodge Facebook from its dominant position. Many of Facebook's users are addicted to the social-media-crack; if Facebook stops providing it, they will migrate to other social networks that provide it. And many of Facebook's customers -- advertisers and propagandists -- want Facebook to continue to modify user behavior on their behalf; and if Facebook stops doing that, those customers will migrate to the competition.

Re: Facebook's advertising integrity chief leaves company

#147

Post by _Understated_ » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 7:02 PM UTC

cs702 wrote: post #103

_Understated_ wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As a corporation, Facebook truly seems to be trying to improve its behavior for the benefit of society at large Sorry, that's a hard disagree from me and I think you couldn't be further off the mark. Facebook's entire raison d'etre from day 1 is to take as much data from as many sources as possible, then use the most powerful computers, programmed by the brightest minds, to use that data to maximise their profit wi…

My point is that Facebook can improve its behavior only by putting its business at risk. If Zuckerberg, Sandberg, et al could improve Facebook's behavior without putting the business at risk , they would do it in a heartbeat. But it appears they can't. Their efforts are thus sincere but highly constrained: They will never voluntarily do anything that would put the business -- their life's work -- at risk. If I may us…

Your original point says that they are looking to change for the benefit of mankind...

They aren't. They have no sincerity. They will do what makes money. Period.

They have shown time and again they don't give two fucks about humanity, mental health, regulators etc until they are about to generate bad PR from it.

The government seems to be aiming at them right now although I suspect that once the brown envelopes stuffed with cash start passing around that will be diluted down to "honest gov, we'll start doing right!".

Their clock is about to be cleaned by Apple when they roll out the changes to apps requiring them to tell people the data that's being harvested... Facebook will quite rightly be worried right now.

If Google did the same... well, we'd see some folks bailing quick-sharp I reckon... rats and sinking ships and all that.

Re: Facebook's advertising integrity chief leaves company

#148

Post by tdfx » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 7:05 PM UTC

legutierr wrote: post #123

cs702 wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine yourself as the CEO of a manufacturer that pollutes rivers, and you sincerely want to stop polluting, but if you stop polluting, the company's costs would increase to the point it would no longer be able to compete against all the other companies that continue polluting -- and they're trying to eat your lunch you every day. So, if you stop polluting you would quickly lose relevance, be forced to shut down pla…

I would choose to use my skills working for a different company in a different industry. If Zuckerberg really had a problem with what Facebook was doing, but didn’t feel he could ethically risk the company’s growth and financial performance by changing its direction, he could quit and sell all his shares. He might take a financial hit, but he would still be one of the world’s richest people.

> If Zuckerberg really had a problem with what Facebook was doing, but didn’t feel he could ethically risk the company’s growth and financial performance by changing its direction, he could quit and sell all his shares. He might take a financial hit, but he would still be one of the world’s richest people.

He is one of the world's richest people. He seems to have concern (or at least feigns it) for the problems Facebook is causing. If he resigns and allows someone else, who is more hungry and motivated by money to take over, you believe Facebook's behavior would improve?

Re: Facebook's advertising integrity chief leaves company

#149

Post by rubyn00bie » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 7:08 PM UTC

cs702 wrote: post #56

As a corporation, Facebook truly seems to be trying to improve its behavior for the benefit of society at large, but the company is finding it very difficult to do The Right Thing, because it would reduce future revenue growth, shrink long-term profitability, and hurt the company's competitive standing against the many other companies that are trying to eat Facebook's lunch every day. In the extreme, Facebook's choic…

You’re apologizing for a company that makes hand over fist money. Has a single competitor in its space (online advertising), and that’s Google.

There is no “getting fucked” when it’s a monopoly controlling its market. Right now, legislation is helping Facebook by increasing the barrier to entry to compete with them.

So what you’re saying is Facebook created this entire situation but would not have if you know it didn’t have to. The only thing is we are only as shitty as we let ourselves be. Stop accepting shitty behavior from people and trying to justify for no reason.

Re: Facebook's advertising integrity chief leaves company

#150

Post by taurath » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 7:10 PM UTC

chishaku wrote: post #139

taurath wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like a job for regulation to me. Of course it’s profitable to be a monipoly and doing the “right thing” might be to allow competitors in but one could basically never truly do that while the bottom line is the most important thing. It’s so strange to me that so many truly believe a profit motive is all that’s needed to have good outcomes. It was never so, only starting in the 80s did companies care about share…

> It’s so strange to me that so many truly believe a profit motive is all that’s needed to have good outcomes. Not strange. In the U.S. at least, we're acculturated to this ideology our whole lives through education and media. That said, many/most of the wealthiest or influential market participants, fortune 500 CEOS, academics from top biz/econ programs understand the importance of trust in the economy and the role…

People still think they’re getting a good deal which is mostly laughable. I’ve been in industries while wanting more regulation in them - it’s always shocking for me to imagine the amount of unreturned loyalty businesses will get from their employees.