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The universe is expanding faster than expected

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Re: The universe is expanding faster than expected

#141

Post by mountainboy »

chanakya wrote: post #126

Can someone explain why the universe is expanding at all? I've heard it said "it's the momentum from the Big Bang". That sounds reasonable, but then we're told that it's not that the galaxies are flying apart, it's that the "basic metric of space itself is expanding". I can understand momentum from an explosion, but why would "space itself" expand because of an explosion?

because some theorists ignored physical reality and got caught up in the beauty of their math instead. They let math dictate "reality" instead of vice-versa. And then they taught it in the schools as theory at first, and now seemingly as fact.

Tesla challenged the notion of "curved spacetime" as illogical. People should have listened to him.

Edwin Hubble, who discovered redshift disparity, in his later life questioned expansion as the cause. People should have listened to him.

Many "alternative" physicists over the years and still today deny expansion, dark, matter, dark energy, black holes, and other imaginary phenomena that were invented to patch mis-matches between observations and mathematical predictions.

But its like spitting in the wind against the force of inertia as everyone gets taught these fantasies in school as though they are fact.

Do yourself a favor and look into some alternative cosmology theories. I've posted a list elsewhere in this thread.

Re: The universe is expanding faster than expected

#142

Post by gpderetta »

horsawlarway wrote: post #90
cygx wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that the most distant astronomical object we've observed has a redshift of 11, corresponding to a light travel distance of 13.4Gly. This means that if our models are correct and the universe is indeed about 13.8 billion years old, then we've seen 97% of the universe's history. Including the microwave background in that pushes the number to 99.997%.

You have an observational slice of about 4000 years at the most generous, 400 years more leniently (telescope invention was ~1600s), 40 years for modern tools (OAO-2 in the late 1960s). You might as well be looking at a single frame of a movie and telling me you know the whole plotline because it happens to have the same pixels on screen for the whole shebang.

But that specific frame has all the previous frames imprinted and increasingly faint in some sort of cosmological motion blur.

Re: The universe is expanding faster than expected

#143

Post by drukenemo »

chanakya wrote: post #126

Can someone explain why the universe is expanding at all? I've heard it said "it's the momentum from the Big Bang". That sounds reasonable, but then we're told that it's not that the galaxies are flying apart, it's that the "basic metric of space itself is expanding". I can understand momentum from an explosion, but why would "space itself" expand because of an explosion?

I’m amazed how the God hypothesis seems to not exist amongst the modern, smart tech world. Everything is science, science one day will know...

Re: The universe is expanding faster than expected

#144

Post by mountainboy »

Triv888 wrote: post #121
mountainboy wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

sure! Electric Universe (Thornhill, Birkeland, Scott, et al) Plasma Cosmology (Alfven, Lerner, et al) Infinite Universe Theory (Borchardt) Recycling Universe Cosmology (Mitchell) Subquantum Kinetics (La Violette) Modern Mechanics (Bryant) Push Gravity: (various, book: Pushing Gravity) The Static Universe (Ratcliffe) Steady State Universe (Hoyle, older) That's a good start at least. ;-) All of the above have one or mo…

An infinite Universe makes the most sense, let's adopt that

yes, personally I believe that pure logic alone can bring one to believe in an infinite, fractal, eternal universe.

In other words, there is no smallest or largest.

There was never any beginning nor will there ever be an end. (If there was a beginning, what caused it?)

There is no outer boundary, limit, or end to the universe. If there were, beyond it would have to be "nothing". How can "nothing" exist, and what would be the border between "something" and "nothing"?

There is no "time", only matter in motion.

Matter is always divisible into something smaller, and composeable into something larger.

Matter in motion at scale n is perceived as a "force" at scales > n.

anyway, fun to think about!

Re: The universe is expanding faster than expected

#145

Post by mountainboy »

Triv888 wrote: post #121
mountainboy wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

sure! Electric Universe (Thornhill, Birkeland, Scott, et al) Plasma Cosmology (Alfven, Lerner, et al) Infinite Universe Theory (Borchardt) Recycling Universe Cosmology (Mitchell) Subquantum Kinetics (La Violette) Modern Mechanics (Bryant) Push Gravity: (various, book: Pushing Gravity) The Static Universe (Ratcliffe) Steady State Universe (Hoyle, older) That's a good start at least. ;-) All of the above have one or mo…

An infinite Universe makes the most sense, let's adopt that

Anyway, Borchardt's book/theory is pretty good.

A bit different than what I've always thought about as my personal infinite universe theory, but good food for thought and he makes the math work. Definitely worth the read!

Re: The universe is expanding faster than expected

#146

Post by Krollifi »

drukenemo wrote: post #143
chanakya wrote: post #126

Can someone explain why the universe is expanding at all? I've heard it said "it's the momentum from the Big Bang". That sounds reasonable, but then we're told that it's not that the galaxies are flying apart, it's that the "basic metric of space itself is expanding". I can understand momentum from an explosion, but why would "space itself" expand because of an explosion?

I’m amazed how the God hypothesis seems to not exist amongst the modern, smart tech world. Everything is science, science one day will know...

The revelations about God come with a lot of baggage that is harmful to science. It’s no wonder people want to slam the door on it.

Re: The universe is expanding faster than expected

#147

Post by dheera »

7373737373 wrote: post #5

Here's a narrated video about this current cosmological crisis: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sfvQ_fsil4 This is one of the key graphics: https://i0.wp.com/particlebites.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/...

The biggest "concern" I have about the expanding universe is that although I have a lot of hope for interstellar travel at some point in the coming few millenia, intergalactic travel poses a whole another set of impossibilities to face, that I'm worried it will never be possible. The space between galaxies is pretty devoid of anything you can use as fuel, repair materials, or anything else. That space is expanding, and at some point around 100-150 billion years from now, galaxies that are not gravitationally bound to the Local Group will be no longer reachable or observable [1].

You need ten times the mass of Mt. Everest in e=mc^2 energy (i.e. 100% efficiency) per 1 kg of mass to get to Andromeda at 1g acceleration/deceleration. [0]

For this reason I sincerely hope that conservation of mass/energy is not necessarily true. Nothing says it needs to be true other than that it empirically seems to be the case, and there is no known process that violates it, other than the Big Bang itself. If it can be violated, we have hope for the long long long term future.

Scary to think about this stuff.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intergalactic_travel

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_far_future

Re: The universe is expanding faster than expected

#148

Post by effingwewt »

drukenemo wrote: post #143
chanakya wrote: post #126

Can someone explain why the universe is expanding at all? I've heard it said "it's the momentum from the Big Bang". That sounds reasonable, but then we're told that it's not that the galaxies are flying apart, it's that the "basic metric of space itself is expanding". I can understand momentum from an explosion, but why would "space itself" expand because of an explosion?

I’m amazed how the God hypothesis seems to not exist amongst the modern, smart tech world. Everything is science, science one day will know...

Religion can't really explain things though. If I say a floating jellyfish did it all, and we are too stupid to ever know why, that doesn't give any clarity.

Tim Minchin has a great line about this in one of his songs[1]

'Science adjusts its views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that belief can be preserved'

[1] https://youtu.be/HhGuXCuDb1U

Re: The universe is expanding faster than expected

#149

Post by ta8645 »

drukenemo wrote: post #143
chanakya wrote: post #126

Can someone explain why the universe is expanding at all? I've heard it said "it's the momentum from the Big Bang". That sounds reasonable, but then we're told that it's not that the galaxies are flying apart, it's that the "basic metric of space itself is expanding". I can understand momentum from an explosion, but why would "space itself" expand because of an explosion?

I’m amazed how the God hypothesis seems to not exist amongst the modern, smart tech world. Everything is science, science one day will know...

You're right. I'm also amazed how the Magic Unicorn hypothesis seems to not exist amongst the modern, smart tech world. It's hard to imagine why they ignore us.

Re: The universe is expanding faster than expected

#150

Post by User23 »

lisper wrote: post #134
User23 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I were not a YEC, then I'd think cosmology and physics are different because physics is a laboratory science where depending on our budget we can do anything from roll balls down inclines to produce quarks while with cosmology we have absolutely no control over conditions and can only make believe we do by sampling in a way that necessarily is corrupted by our biases. And the amount of data to sample from is plent…

> physics is a laboratory science That would come as news to most theoretical physicists, who rarely set foot in a laboratory. > we can ... produce quarks How do you know we can produce quarks? Also, where does astronomy fit into your taxonomy? Was Newton doing science or phenomenology when he came up with the inverse square law? Plate tectonics? What about (drum roll, please) biology?

> That would come as news to most theoretical physicists, who rarely set foot in a laboratory.

I agree that it's fair to describe cosmologists as a species of theoretical physicist, given the long standing connection between the observation of heavily bodies and the birth of the modern physical sciences. Still the relation is rather remote.

> How do you know we can produce quarks?

I personally don't. I'm relying on hearsay from a buddy with a PhD in particle physics who worked at Los Alamos. I don't think he's a liar so I'll take him at his word about what's possible in particle physics labs.

> Also, where does astronomy fit into your taxonomy? Was Newton doing science or phenomenology when he came up with the inverse square law? Plate tectonics? What about (drum roll, please) biology?

Astronomy is a phenomenology on account of nobody has a lab big enough to create stars in, or run any other astronomical scale experiments. Newton was doing natural philosophy, which in his case had elements of both what we now call science and phenomenology. Plate tectonics would strictly speaking be a phenomenology. Biology is a bloody wet mess that's mostly phenomenology, but there are disciplines in it which are mature science to the point of being engineering, like breeding domesticated plant and animal species.

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