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Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

nature.com

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Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#141

Post by mattkrause »

throwaway67853 wrote: post #12

IMHO the big problem in experimental sciences is what the article kindly describes as power imbalances. I'd call it perhaps neofeudalism. I've seen many cases where principal investigators / professors are completely disconnected from research, including an absolute lack of any basic knowledge related to the field. They are just middlemen. For someone coming from pure mathematics, where professors routinely come up w…

Outside of a class, I don’t think I’ve ever been asked for any feedback about a professor, program, or department, neither as a grad student nor postdoc. If I were king of academia, I’d make this an important part of hiring and funding decisions.

Right now, individual fellowships to grad students and postdocs are scored, in part, on the “training environment” but weirdly, research grants to a professor (to hire grad students and postdocs) are not. This would be an easy thing to flip. Faculty applicants could submit a letter from a trainee as part of their package too.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#142

Post by mattkrause »

chrisseaton wrote: post #9
flobosg wrote: post #4

I’m currently writing my dissertation and still debating whether to stay in academia or not. I mean, even if I had not been academically unsuccessful during grad school I will get a piece of paper saying "You have a PhD" in the end. If you fail during your postdoc you are left with basically nothing. That’s a huge burden.

> If you fail during your postdoc you are left with basically nothing. Can't you go into industry? You'll have a PhD + more papers done along the way in your postdoc.

Postdocs seems...poorly understood by industry.

I have what should be a relatively employable background (ML + Neuro with a smattering of biology), and yet I rarely hear from recruiters (though I would love to).

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#143

Post by foldr »

bonoboTP wrote: post #133
yodsanklai wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The issue isn't the level of competitiveness but the cost of losing. I agree but only to some extent. First, there are many research institutions in the world. The same way there is more than one software company. They are not all equally selective and prestigious. There are also a lot of companies doing R&D. It may not be academic research, but it can also be pretty cool. In that sense, not getting an academic pos…

Yep, you can probably get a position at some backwater university that will pay (in the rich Western World) still enough to live a "normal" life. But of course everyone thinks they deserve a place at the top of the totem pole and anything less prestigious is a catastrophe. It's understandable. Many were always the top or one of the top kids in class or in school, won various local competitions but then it comes to co…

>Yep, you can probably get a position at some backwater university that will pay (in the rich Western World) still enough to live a "normal" life.

This is a bit of a misconception. Even if you're willing to take any tenure-track job anywhere, the odds are still against you. There are simply far fewer tenure-track jobs per year than there are graduating PhD students.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#144

Post by lycopodiopsida »

Mmrnmhrm wrote: post #57
ebg13 wrote: post #2

Postgraduate student depression and suicidality is at horrifying proportions. The universities don't care. No one cares. Academia is super fucked and super fucked up, and it just keeps marching onward with blindfold on and fingers in ears, yelling "LA LA LA LA" as loud as possible. Academic positions are basically gone. Whatever didn't vanish completely after the 2009 recession is definitely gone now. Universities co…

I can relate. I just read this at 3am while trying to stop wondering what to do with my life. I had the childhood dream of being a professor, and after a short stint in industry, when someone gave me the chance to do a PhD I took it. Life got in the way and got my PhD at 36 years old. Nobody guided me, and did not optimize my publication schedule, so it is impossible to land a job in academia. Now I am postdoc 39, no…

I can understand it too - I finished my PhD with 34. In the end, I could have seen it coming: my supervisor had 0 interest in supervising, so it took a huge mental strain on me.

I've also had immense luck - I've been a computer nerd for a very long time and I was programming a lot in my field (neuroscience). So all it took was a word from one guy I knew at a big software company and I was hired. I also have to say, that a PhD, or better said, a Dr. in my country still means something, especially if you have customer contact.

But I've seen things... bright people in their 40s who have to drop out in their 40s to be hired as a labor assistent at pharma. Associate professors who would run out of money and that's the end of the career. Doing a PhD was easily the dumbest and most risky decision of my life and I was extremely lucky to get away with only some mental scars. The only positive things I can think is the friendship with other PhD students (because you went through hell together!) and the confidence in my abitity to process and dissect huge piles of information. In the end, the latter is sole reason companies are willing to give you a shot. Dont undervalue it and sell it accordingly. If you have a PhD you most likely are very persistant and very capable of self-learning.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#145

Post by bonoboTP »

foldr wrote: post #143
bonoboTP wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, you can probably get a position at some backwater university that will pay (in the rich Western World) still enough to live a "normal" life. But of course everyone thinks they deserve a place at the top of the totem pole and anything less prestigious is a catastrophe. It's understandable. Many were always the top or one of the top kids in class or in school, won various local competitions but then it comes to co…

>Yep, you can probably get a position at some backwater university that will pay (in the rich Western World) still enough to live a "normal" life. This is a bit of a misconception. Even if you're willing to take any tenure-track job anywhere, the odds are still against you. There are simply far fewer tenure-track jobs per year than there are graduating PhD students.

How could it be in any other way though? I just can't get into the viewpoint of people who are surprised. Did they think that getting to tenure is just a normal, default stage in life that you will progress to as a natural consequence of time passing? Do they also think that everyone who works for long enough at a company will become a manager, then a VP then a CEO and if not, then they either did something wrong and worked below expectations or the system failed them?

Who starts a PhD and believes strongly that they will with high likelihood become profs? You have one prof as your supervisor and the same prof has many more PhD students. Do people not notice this?

After a certain point of bloat, growth cannot be sustained. Especially in America the system has ballooned up to an unreasonable degree and will collapse when people realize that value is elsewhere and will refuse to pay into the system through tuition.

Prestige, status, attention, fame etc. are scarce resources. Not every garage rock band can become superstars, most will not even be able to sustain it as a job or even to earn nonnegligible money.

Prestige is zero sum because it is relative. If everyone can become a professor then being a professor will inflate its meaning (already happening). But be assured there will be new concepts to signal prestige and people will be disappointed that they aren't all getting that prestige.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#146

Post by foldr »

bonoboTP wrote: post #145
foldr wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Yep, you can probably get a position at some backwater university that will pay (in the rich Western World) still enough to live a "normal" life. This is a bit of a misconception. Even if you're willing to take any tenure-track job anywhere, the odds are still against you. There are simply far fewer tenure-track jobs per year than there are graduating PhD students.

How could it be in any other way though? I just can't get into the viewpoint of people who are surprised. Did they think that getting to tenure is just a normal, default stage in life that you will progress to as a natural consequence of time passing? Do they also think that everyone who works for long enough at a company will become a manager, then a VP then a CEO and if not, then they either did something wrong and…

Yes, you're totally right. I think in general people do these things because they think they're special. You could ask the same question about why people found startups or attempt to become olympic athletes.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#147

Post by chrisseaton »

valarauko wrote: post #55
chrisseaton wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you don't get tenure right away I don't understand how you can be a professor and not be tenured, so I guess we're talking about different things.

A fresh postdoc able to secure an academic job joins as an "Assistant Professor". Fresh Assistant Professors usually cannot recruit PhD students, have limited funds to establish their lab, and no job security. It takes several grades and 15+ years to reach the position of "Professor", which comes with tenure.

I don't understand how you can go from being a postdoc to being a professor. That seems to really diminish the value of the title 'professor' to me, if people can get it as basically their first permanent academic job.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#148

Post by gspr »

azalemeth wrote: post #80
gspr wrote: post #74

I hope you'll forgive me ranting, but it's almost exactly a year ago since I left academia (was a postdoc), and I'm feeling very down about it and need to let out some thoughts. First the positives: academia has some amazing qualities. If you "make it" (or, alternatively, until you "fail" and drop out) you'll spend most of your time working on problems that you are truly passionate about. The kind of problems that yo…

I've just accepted a semi-permanent professorship after being a postdoc for several years. I've had a handful of grants accepted and the vast majority not -- some schemes have a suck for everything aside from the work – I think I was on my 13th short term contract (three of them 3 months or less!) before getting a permanent post. Naturally, this post is in a different country from my friends, family, and partner. I s…

The best of luck to you! And remember that the grass tends to look greener on the other side. At least you're on the side from where it's pretty easy to jump the fence if you should decide to – the other way around is a different story.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#149

Post by [deleted] »

yodsanklai wrote: post #101
angrais wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> I've never encountered any form of bullying or discrimination in my 15 years academic career (in three different countries). Great to hear that you've not encountered bullying in the academy, but it absolutely does exist and is unfortunately thriving. Often when it occurs, the university will side with the academic rather than postdoc or PhD students, which puts them in an extremely difficult situation since their…

> but it absolutely does exist and is unfortunately thriving I'm sure it exists. I may be wrong since it's based on personal experience, but I can't believe it's thriving (at least, in my field, computer science). These things are taken more and more seriously. If anything, I can only imagine they occur less and less frequently.

[deleted]

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#150

Post by echelon »

bart_spoon wrote: post #135
echelon wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's suddenly dawned on me in the past month or so that the era of growth for many American ways of life is at an end. Not just academia. The post-war, post-energy boom should have been obvious. Millennials have been complaining about lack of job growth, housing, and affordable education. Their parents had lower-hanging fruit to pluck. (I'm assuming this isn't just some myth I've been told about the 60's - 90's.) The…

I’m reading Capital in the 21st Century, and Piketty notes that the growth rates that characterized the decades following the world wars were aberrations, not the norm. Growth has largely been very, very slow across most of human history. It’s also worth noting that the intense post-war growth followed by a return to earth has occurred in most countries around the world, regardless of domestic policies, with some, li…

On the flip side, I've been reading other's claim that we're entering into a new era of growth and productivity, perhaps fueled by competition with China. A cold war space race. Or maybe hitting the correct technological salients.

The examples these proponents cite are GPU explosion, deep learning, M1, Tesla, SpaceX, vast improvements to protein folding, CRISPR, etc.

It's a different perspective, and I'm not sure which one is a better predictor of the future.

I get the sense that we're in broad return to normal growth rates, as you say, but with isolated peaks of innovation that aren't enough to carry the entire economy.

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