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Magic mushrooms are changing the lives of terminal cancer patients

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Re: Magic mushrooms are changing the lives of terminal cancer patients

#141

Post by drooogs »

lostgame wrote: post #30
3np wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ketamine is not generally considered a psychedelic. It's a disassociative. I don't think I've ever seen a study comparing this in the way you describe, but from piecing together other papers I recall seeing I would say probably psiloc(yb)in, possibly DMT ("ayahuasca"), with LSD and mescaline (peyote/san pedro) being qualitatively similar. All of these are primarily serotonergic. I'd be surprised if Salvia does jack s…

>> Ketamine is not generally considered a psychedelic. It's a disassociative. Yeah, I don't think people who say that have done a high enough dosage. :P

kinda splitting hairs, but these words do have specific meanings. psychedelics and dissociatives of hallucinogens, a broader category of drugs. you definitely see weird stuff if you take enough ketamine, but the hallucinations have a very different character.

subjectively, I find psychedelics to have more of an "organic" feel and dissociatives to have a more "synthetic" feel, although I imagine others might describe it differently.

Re: Magic mushrooms are changing the lives of terminal cancer patients

#142

Post by bigbubba »

cubix wrote: post #130
cjaybo wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems like an awfully self-centered way of viewing the situation.

How so? I was respectful of her decision -- although I suspect it was more her husband's decision -- but I wouldn't have made the same myself. It seemed like there was a lot she had to say, but couldn't in that state due to the drug. I suppose she thought she was making sense, but objectively wasn't.

You say you respect her decision, but then in the same breadth go on to say you think it wasn't her decision at all. You've written much in this thread to strangers on the internet about how you believe it was a wrong decision. You have a peculiar way of respecting others' opinions.

Re: Magic mushrooms are changing the lives of terminal cancer patients

#143

Post by fsloth »

treis wrote: post #136
fsloth wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Effectively they are giving drugs that alter ones perception of reality Like over the self painkillers do? Personally I don't see the philosophical difference in alleviating physical pain from alleviating psychological pain. Of course, if the psychological pain is caused by a condition that can be fixed the fixing the condition itself is of course better. But in many cases of depression and anxiety there is no clear…

Painkillers are temporary. The drugs we are talking about are meant to effect a permanent change on the user. And pain killers, at least OTC ones, don't alter someone's psyche. We can, more or less, rely on their judgment that painkillers are helpful. You can't necessarily say the same for mind altering drugs.

You can't necessarily say the same for mind altering drugs.

All things are bad if not taken in moderation.

My experience (personal and thus merely anecdotal) on mind altering drugs has been only positive.

My SSRI medication was very welcome when I needed it, and I am very happy they 'altered my mind' and helped through some very dark times.

If I was hit by depression again I would not mind trying a psilocybin based medical regimen.

Re: Magic mushrooms are changing the lives of terminal cancer patients

#144

Post by leetcrew »

jeromenerf wrote: post #140
leetcrew wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Anecdotally speaking, there's a lot of people in this world that think drugs make their lives better when an objective observer would pretty strongly disagree. what does it even mean to "objectively observe" whether drugs make someone's life better? we can look at a crack addict living in squalor and plainly see how their addiction inhibits material success. we can also imagine how deeply unhappy we would be to liv…

I agree that "objective observation" doesn’t mean much. However there is no doubt people under destructive addiction are very well aware that their condition sucks. It doesn’t mean they can overcome the addiction and the urge of scoring. I think the parent was related to behaviours such as "pot makes me more creative when playing music" or "cocaine makes me a better dancer" or "alcohol makes me funnier". All of which…

> However there is no doubt people under destructive addiction are very well aware that their condition sucks. It doesn’t mean they can overcome the addiction and the urge of scoring.

agreed, and most of them will freely admit this, as long as they trust you not to use that information "against" them.

> I think the parent was related to behaviours such as "pot makes me more creative when playing music" or "cocaine makes me a better dancer" or "alcohol makes me funnier". All of which can be externally appreciated with a different opinion.

I can also agree with this, as long as we are limiting the observation to extrinsic qualities.

maybe I read too much into GP's comment. I am wary of these sorts of statements, because they are often a jumping-off point to advocate for compulsory treatment of mental health issues.

Re: Magic mushrooms are changing the lives of terminal cancer patients

#145

Post by scottlocklin »

rStar wrote: post #52
colechristensen wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know, I have met plenty of people that revolve their lives around their favorite drug and talk about them like a kind of religion. Most of them are rather low grade, but as i take it, it is a characteristic of hallucinogenic drugs not just a passed fad.

hallucinogenics, for those that have a positive experience, are so foreign and outside the bounds of normal life, while making you feel like you have new insight into your own life, that people just want other people to have that experience. kind of like the first time you see the ocean or the grand canyon or a sequoia.

It's incredibly creepy, like people insisting you join their religious or sexual cult. It's definitely beyond "hey the grand canyon is cool to look at" or "motorcycles are fun" and is way out there next to "wild eyed moonies handing out flowers at the airport." I'm always creeped out by HN threads on the subject, along with the ones on depression and the collection of fruit salad antidepressants/speed some people need to get through the day.

Mind you I have had positive experiences with psychedelics; I wouldn't push them on anyone, and think it both creepy and unwise to do so.

Re: Magic mushrooms are changing the lives of terminal cancer patients

#146

Post by bigbubba »

yummypaint wrote: post #103
fsloth wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I presume the main reason for the controversy is the prevailing dogma "Drugs are evil". This dogma has been used to enact countless bills of legislation in most rich countries, which in turn have encumbered the justice and police system, which in turn have put thousands upon thousands of people into to the correctional system for years. After all that busywork, lives destroyed and taxpayer money wasted, it is really…

I would argue it goes beyond "drugs are evil" for many people and is more of a vestige of the country's backwards puritanical past. It has little to do with medicine and is more closely related to the idea that pleasure is wrong and pulls one away from devotion to the church, tithing, etc. If presented with a hypothetical recreational drug with no side effects, people with this perspective will immediately say it sho…

Blaming puritanical opposition to fun seems like a 'just so' narrative that fits some of the apparent facts, but is contradicted by others. For instance, American culture glorifies caffeine, particularly coca cola which is portrayed in corporate propaganda as a 'fun' drink. When it comes to commercial products like that, there seems to be no hint of an anti-fun bias, ...except perhaps in the Mormons.

While anti-fun attitudes probably play some role, I think it mostly comes down to a pro-productivity mindset. Caffeine is generally understood to enhance productivity, and for that reason may as well be a revered god in the American pantheon. Alcohol is borderline; it's a known quantity that generally seems to leave productivity intact except in cases of alcoholism (alcoholism is consequently seen as shameful). Alcohol bans have been attempted, and are still intact today in remote regions of Alaska where the productivity impairment alcohol induces is seen as a particularly concerning matter. Cannabis remains maligned because it's seen as making people lazy and content, not because it might be fun. And amphetamines are legalized in circumstances where doctors say it will cure productivity impairing disorders.

Re: Magic mushrooms are changing the lives of terminal cancer patients

#148

Post by cubix »

bigbubba wrote: post #142
cubix wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How so? I was respectful of her decision -- although I suspect it was more her husband's decision -- but I wouldn't have made the same myself. It seemed like there was a lot she had to say, but couldn't in that state due to the drug. I suppose she thought she was making sense, but objectively wasn't.

You say you respect her decision, but then in the same breadth go on to say you think it wasn't her decision at all. You've written much in this thread to strangers on the internet about how you believe it was a wrong decision. You have a peculiar way of respecting others' opinions.

By respect I meant that I didn’t attempt argue with her husband about it, or say anything to her, which would have been pointless anyway.

Re: Magic mushrooms are changing the lives of terminal cancer patients

#149

Post by drooogs »

bigbubba wrote: post #146
yummypaint wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue it goes beyond "drugs are evil" for many people and is more of a vestige of the country's backwards puritanical past. It has little to do with medicine and is more closely related to the idea that pleasure is wrong and pulls one away from devotion to the church, tithing, etc. If presented with a hypothetical recreational drug with no side effects, people with this perspective will immediately say it sho…

Blaming puritanical opposition to fun seems like a 'just so' narrative that fits some of the apparent facts, but is contradicted by others. For instance, American culture glorifies caffeine, particularly coca cola which is portrayed in corporate propaganda as a 'fun' drink. When it comes to commercial products like that, there seems to be no hint of an anti-fun bias, ...except perhaps in the Mormons. While anti-fun a…

I think alcohol fits into the puritanical framework pretty well actually. hangovers are built-in retribution for people who consume to excess. I suspect puritan types find it particularly upsetting when drugs do not punish their users the next morning.

Re: Magic mushrooms are changing the lives of terminal cancer patients

#150

Post by drooogs »

bigbubba wrote: post #142
cubix wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How so? I was respectful of her decision -- although I suspect it was more her husband's decision -- but I wouldn't have made the same myself. It seemed like there was a lot she had to say, but couldn't in that state due to the drug. I suppose she thought she was making sense, but objectively wasn't.

You say you respect her decision, but then in the same breadth go on to say you think it wasn't her decision at all. You've written much in this thread to strangers on the internet about how you believe it was a wrong decision. You have a peculiar way of respecting others' opinions.

respect is orthogonal to agreement. why would it even be necessary to say you respect someone's decision if you agree without reservation?
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