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Docker fails to launch on Apple Silicon

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Re: Docker fails to launch on Apple Silicon

#141

Post by p1necone »

frogblast wrote: post #83
ogre_codes wrote: post #13

This link is a little confusing because the top comment and much of the conversation is talking about the DTK which was based on the much older A12X CPU and not the M1. As far as I can tell, the M1 does have virtualization support, Docker just isn't ported yet. Update: Also, from Apple docs it seems like you won't be able to run emulation and virtualization in the same process. So you can run x86 Mac apps, but it's l…

Right, lots of confusion in this thread. A12Z/DTK: HW does not support virtualization at all. Apple M1 / New Apple Products: HW does support virtualization for ARM64 guests (both windows and linux demonstrated). What about x86 software in the guestOS? Not with Rosetta. Instead, the guest OS will have to provide its own translation (such as windows/arm's current x86->arm64 or upcoming x86_64->arm64 feature). I'm not f…

X86 software running in a VM hosted ARM Windows/Linux env, but using Apples translation layer is not something I would expect to work anyway - seems like a weird thing for them to try to do to me.

Re: Docker fails to launch on Apple Silicon

#142

Post by Seb-C »

mhh__ wrote: post #94
shiado wrote: post #16

I'm actually tempted to get one of the new Macbook Airs. There's something intriguing and fun about navigating the brokenness of a new ecosystem. Does anybody know how Steam handles the new macs?

If you can burn the cash then go for it, but unless these laptops can support something other than MacOS I'm (with a sad expression) staying away from them. Obviously if you just make websites it doesn't matter but if I'm buying an ARM device I want to play with the bare metal (you can't even access performance counters in MacOS IIRC)

May I ask what do you enjoy with a Macbook not running MacOS?

I don't like Apple devices myself but I understand that some people like the ecosystem as a whole.

However I don't understand the point of a Mac without MacOS. The hardware is pretty much garbage compared to any laptop of the same price range, let alone high-end laptops like Thinkpads.

(this is a honest question and I am not trying to troll or make fun of anyone, in case anyone doubt of the tone of my post)

Re: Docker fails to launch on Apple Silicon

#143

Post by throwaway894345 »

pvorb wrote: post #123
jcelerier wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Docker x86 version already supports running ARM images via qemu out of the box on Windows and Mac it "works", but on my overpowered i7, running a raspberry pi docker image that way with qemu-user-static is... only marginally faster than running the code on an actual rpi 3, which is pretty much potato-levels of power.

Yep, so if you're a developer and buy a Macbook with the M1, all the potential performance gains would be lost when depending on common Docker images. That's quite sad. (It would at least be a huge problem for me. I mostly develop server software that runs on Kubernetes on AMD64 machines.)

Why not just run the ARM images instead of the x64? Granted not everyone makes ARM images, but in a year or so I fully expect that all serious Docker images will have ARM support (not because of Mac, but rather because of ARM’s progress in the server space). And in the meanwhile, building the image yourself isn’t that hard.

Re: Docker fails to launch on Apple Silicon

#144

Post by Shank »

moondev wrote: post #63

Screenshot of Docker for Mac control panel during the WWDC demo. It even shows some containers running. https://i.imgur.com/bQb1grM.png Pretty misleading to include it in the demo if Docker for Mac still doesn't launch next week right?

> Pretty misleading to include it in the demo if Docker for Mac still doesn't launch next week right?

The M1 hardware hasn't shipped yet. Presumably this criticism is only valid if the hardware has shipped, which it has not. If Apple did indeed have a lot of involvement porting Docker, my assumption is that they'll release that with the machines next week (November 17, 2020), as opposed to before the hardware is generally available.

Re: Docker fails to launch on Apple Silicon

#145

Post by zhengyi13 »

LeSaucy wrote: post #86
frogblast wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, lots of confusion in this thread. A12Z/DTK: HW does not support virtualization at all. Apple M1 / New Apple Products: HW does support virtualization for ARM64 guests (both windows and linux demonstrated). What about x86 software in the guestOS? Not with Rosetta. Instead, the guest OS will have to provide its own translation (such as windows/arm's current x86->arm64 or upcoming x86_64->arm64 feature). I'm not f…

This was a huge reason why I decided to go with a 16" MBP with an i9 vs the M1 today. I assume this will get worked out eventually , but as massive as Apple's gravity is in their ecosystem to pull apps along, they will have a much harder time against the massive library of x86 docker images.

Apropos of yesterday's thread(s?) around running a k3s cluster on Raspberry Pis - when I tried to do something similar, I very quickly ran out of steam trying to find manifests and charts that didn't have some random x86_64 image hardcoded somewhere inside them.

I spent more time trying to figure out ways to get the right images than I did learning k8s, so I kinda put the project down.

I do think this is exactly the sort of thing though that will start to flush that out, long term.

Re: Docker fails to launch on Apple Silicon

#146

Post by floatingatoll »

LeSaucy wrote: post #86
frogblast wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, lots of confusion in this thread. A12Z/DTK: HW does not support virtualization at all. Apple M1 / New Apple Products: HW does support virtualization for ARM64 guests (both windows and linux demonstrated). What about x86 software in the guestOS? Not with Rosetta. Instead, the guest OS will have to provide its own translation (such as windows/arm's current x86->arm64 or upcoming x86_64->arm64 feature). I'm not f…

This was a huge reason why I decided to go with a 16" MBP with an i9 vs the M1 today. I assume this will get worked out eventually , but as massive as Apple's gravity is in their ecosystem to pull apps along, they will have a much harder time against the massive library of x86 docker images.

You did the right thing. This is not the right time for software developers to experiment with Apple Silicon, unless they’re willing to help develop software to work with Apple Silicon.

Re: Docker fails to launch on Apple Silicon

#147

Post by otterley »

aseipp wrote: post #98
otterley wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don't know yet whether M1 will be able to support a hypervisor, so it's just too soon to say. I know it's not the HN culture, but I encourage everyone to take a deep breath and be patient for the actual hardware to arrive.

The Apple documentation for Hypervisor.framework now explicitly includes references to Apple Silicon, and even ignoring that, they showed Debian running in Parallels back at WWDC during the announcement. They literally had a giant interstitial during the talk that was titled "Virtualization," complete with a cute little logo/icon and a demo, in classic Apple style.

That's great data! Thanks!

Re: Docker fails to launch on Apple Silicon

#148

Post by waheoo »

LeSaucy wrote: post #86
frogblast wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, lots of confusion in this thread. A12Z/DTK: HW does not support virtualization at all. Apple M1 / New Apple Products: HW does support virtualization for ARM64 guests (both windows and linux demonstrated). What about x86 software in the guestOS? Not with Rosetta. Instead, the guest OS will have to provide its own translation (such as windows/arm's current x86->arm64 or upcoming x86_64->arm64 feature). I'm not f…

This was a huge reason why I decided to go with a 16" MBP with an i9 vs the M1 today. I assume this will get worked out eventually , but as massive as Apple's gravity is in their ecosystem to pull apps along, they will have a much harder time against the massive library of x86 docker images.

I switched off Mac years ago.

My servers run Linux. Not bsd.

Having to deal with this sort of stuff is just a waste of time.

Mac's don't have a monopoly on quality, haven't for a long time.

And since it's a usual response, anyone claiming Linux is too fiddly haven't used it in a long time. And while it can be if you want to roll your own DE its completely optional. Using something like fedora you can literally do almost everything non developer based with point and click.

Re: Docker fails to launch on Apple Silicon

#149

Post by vlovich123 »

cercatrova wrote: post #132
my123 wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Secure Boot can be disabled on Arm macs. Guess that Craig Federighi says this because Apple won't take care of drivers for other OSes. See this WWDC session: https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2020/10686 and this manpage: https://pastebin.ubuntu.com/p/RwcT8stYMY/

While that may be true, due to custom ARM instructions that Apple uses, it might be difficult to port various other OS onto it. We'll see though.

I would think the bigger problems are drivers & secure boot rather than just instructions. M1 is a regular ARM processor so existing backends at a minimum would work fine even if they're not fully optimized (+ I would be a bit surprised if the M1 support for LLVM isn't upstreamed).

Re: Docker fails to launch on Apple Silicon

#150

Post by cercatrova »

vlovich123 wrote: post #149
cercatrova wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While that may be true, due to custom ARM instructions that Apple uses, it might be difficult to port various other OS onto it. We'll see though.

I would think the bigger problems are drivers & secure boot rather than just instructions. M1 is a regular ARM processor so existing backends at a minimum would work fine even if they're not fully optimized (+ I would be a bit surprised if the M1 support for LLVM isn't upstreamed).

Is that really true that M1 is just an ARM processor? I've heard the difficulty in emulating it is due to Apple specific things, whether they be drivers or new instructions.
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