141–150 of 198 posts
Key point of the abstract: Women: +9 to +10% chance of callback relative to men Black, Hispanic, and Asian: -8 to -13% chance of callback relative to White people. Anyway, kudos (I guess?) to the researchers for choosing the absolutely most fashionable subject they could possibly study in this day and age.
"Fashionable"? Being so dismissive of the push for racial equality is deeply arrogant and small minded.
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This is why I actually believe there should be hiring quotas. Tell departments that at least XX% of their hires are expected to be woman, or older than 50, or racial minorities, or whatever else. Set the percentage based on the pool of applicants, minus a bit to allow wiggle room. (And if there are legal blockers, let's change the law!) It feels wrong to me too, I know it does! But if hiring happens based on gut, and…
Well this might be taking it a step too far. The first, obvious step would be simply to compare the actual hires (workers) with the available pool... almost nobody actually does that. People keep claiming that e.g. Google is sexist because they hire so few women, without regard to the fact that their worker pool has about the same distribution as their hiring pool (CS graduates). The UK passed a law requiring compani…
I absolutely agree! (And that's also why I said in my post that the percentage should be determined by the applicant pool.)
There's a separate conversation to be had about why the applicant pool is skewed, but IMO that's well outside a given company's purview.
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It's definitely very interesting to see white men's reactions now that they are starting to experience discrimination themselves. Your comment is actually very telling. Instead of realizing and admitting that racism and sexism are bad and hurtful, you instead referred to the perpetrators as "arrogant sexist bigots" and talked about how scary the "echo chamber" was. edit: In fact, it is remarkable that this "it is act…
Ah, that’s another common attitude. I’m white so I HAVE to admit to my racism. People don’t like it being called out on it. Had some girl come up to me and demand I apologize for being a a man, and how that’s kept her out of tech. I have many daughters and work hard to show them programming and other concepts. So yeah, she was flat being sexist. As a child I saw pictures of a crowd shouting at a a black girl for goin…
No, but you should admit your privilege, which is a result of collective racism and sexism. This doesn't mean you yourself are racist or sexist. It does mean you benefited from those things. This doesn't mean it is your fault. It does mean you should at least try to empathize with people who are angry about it.
The fact of the matter is this: regardless of what kind of life you have lived as a white man, things would have been worse if you had lived that life as a minority and/or a woman.
>> Why need to strive to a point where none that maters. We treat each other with respect.
There can be no respect without reconciliation. You cannot simply pretend that white people, white men in particular, didn't achieve their economic and social advantages and statuses (which include highly paid tech jobs!) due to immense collective privilege. Pointing this out does not make one a bigot. Complaining about it does not mean the complainer is full of hatred.
You should not apologize for being a man or a white person, but you should at least try to empathize with people who did not manage to get where you are simply because of their race or gender.
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> most female candidates are highly, highly sought-after, and are quickly hired by top tech companies Let's say we believe that women are on average equally as capable of men, and we know there are maybe 10-20% as many women in the industry. Are those 10-20% women roughly as good as the average man, or are they roughly as good as the top 10-20% of men? Have they had the same experience as average men, or have they fo…
Wouldn't you need to have evidence of discrimination before you start to discriminate against other groups in the name of women? Women might actually get a backlash for that and you have the classic self-fullfilling prophecy. Why not try a revolutionary approach and treat people equally, everyone to their best ability as their conscience allows? We would need to scrap esoteric models about bias and have very simple r…
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To believe that blind applications would help increase female representation presupposes that they're being discriminated against right now, when TFA shows that women are getting preferential callbacks. That completely jives with my experience: most female candidates are highly, highly sought-after, and are quickly hired by top tech companies (leaving smaller companies looking bad in the process, despire their equal…
> Blind applications would probably hurt female representation. Isn't this good for gender equality?
Other fields, like medicine, law and chemistry have radically changed gender composition since the 1940s so it's not unprecedented for an industry to lose its gender bias.
Personally I think it's far from certain such an effort would work - or that it wouldn't.
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Wouldn't you need to have evidence of discrimination before you start to discriminate against other groups in the name of women? Women might actually get a backlash for that and you have the classic self-fullfilling prophecy. Why not try a revolutionary approach and treat people equally, everyone to their best ability as their conscience allows? We would need to scrap esoteric models about bias and have very simple r…
Do you mean evidence or indisputable proof?
The only problem with blind selection, is that, sooner or later, the race/gender/sexual orientation/religion/fitness/attractiveness/age (I'm an old fart, so I can tell you a thing or two about ageism in tech) becomes apparent. I have heard story after story from peers (around my age), about passing numerous rounds of phone and test interviews, only to see the interviewer's face fall, as soon as they walk in the door.…
I started reading this, then halfway through got bored and thought to myself “I wonder if this is that Chris Marshall user”. Sure enough, it is :).
Okay, honest question coming from ignorance. In computing at least, there's a well known diversity disparity going back to STEM graduation rates. It seems financial is a similar boat: Wells Fargo recently claimed a “limited talent pool" but got criticized by AOC for lacking "talent to recruit Black workers". Obviously society, including industry, could do more to get kids into school. But right now, in the resume pil…
I think the important bit is here:
> Our results in light of these considerations suggest that the push for diversity without any effort towards inclusion is unlikely to be sustainable in the long term.
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Is there any group that is "systemically killing" any other group in America right now? Please bring data.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop-and-frisk_in_New_York_Cit... Stop and Frisk is widely believed to be proof that police are disproportionately targeting black people, and it seems interactions with police end in death more for black people than white people.
> interactions with police end in death more for black people than white people.
There are high quality studies which provide compelling evidence against this claim [2][3], in both absolute and statistically "controlled for" terms. What's more, the killing of black people by police is extremely rare: 0.0033% or 33 per 1 million. [4]
It is stunning and scary to me that people are so willing to (rightly) call out Trump for distributing misinformation, and yet, on the other hand, are perfectly willing to traffic in it themselves on certain topics. The end result of both is stoking unnecessary, divisive, and dangerous fear in people.
[1] https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/nypd/downloads/pdf/public_inform...
[2] Johnson, David J., et al. "Officer characteristics and racial disparities in fatal officer-involved shootings." Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences 116.32 (2019): 15877-15882.
[3] Fryer Jr, Roland G. "An empirical analysis of racial differences in police use of force." Journal of Political Economy 127.3 (2019): 1210-1261. APA
[4] https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/polic...
Personal experience. Got hired into a company that did everything possible to avoid hiring straight white men. Everything was completely dominated by not offending anyone over anything. Unless you were the aforementioned group. Turns out there simply isn’t a lot of the right race/gender/sex. I’m sure that’ll be different as time progresses, but for now there is clearly some catching up to do. So it was all jr develop…
Worked in a group that did everything possible to avoid hiring, acknowledging, and rewarding women's contributions.
Everything was completely dominated by one-upmanship and crude jokes. Unless you were in the in-group, you were screwed.
I don't doubt your annecdote. I guess all I can say is, welcome to the club? Being part of the "out group" in a toxic workplace sucks. I've had men come up to me and say, "Wow now I get it." Because in their entire lives they had only worked on male dominated teams, and working on a toxic non hetero non male dominated team made them really uncomfortable, they were fine working on toxic hetero male dominated teams. All the norms had changed and they didn't know what to do. But until they experienced it themselves didn't get "what the big deal" is.
I stay in tech because I don't want to be forced to take a lower salary because of cultural attitudes that women being around "ruins the atmosphere". But yes if I had a pile of FU money, I would bail in a second, not because I'm busy taking care of children or whatever excuse, but because people are insecure, emotionally immature and create a great deal of toxicity.