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Could a Peasant Defeat a Knight in Battle?

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Re: Could a Peasant Defeat a Knight in Battle?

#141

Post by peteretep »

wyattpeak wrote: post #114
miles wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the peasants formed an association to defend themselves and fought off the Vikings ... military service was reserved for aristocrats only ... The response of the Frankish leadership was to come in and massacre the peasants Strange that the peasants could fight back a group of Vikings ("the toughest warriors ever" according to National Geographic[0]) but not a bunch of aristocrats. [0] https://www.vikingmartialarts.…

Using "bunch of aristocrats" pejoratively is a thoroughly modern take. Aristocrats were the best fighters in their day. They were the ones with money for good arms and time to train well, besides which fighting was for many of them their profession. Besides, "toughest warriors ever" sounds more like popular colouring than an academic assessment. I don't know a lot about Vikings but as I understand they were principal…

> Using "bunch of aristocrats" pejoratively is a thoroughly modern take

Very _very_ modern. This is basically the plot of The Jam's "The Eton Rifles"...

Re: Could a Peasant Defeat a Knight in Battle?

#143

Post by Nasrudith »

briefcomment wrote: post #94
cmrdporcupine wrote: post #17

In the Annals of St Bertin there's mention of an attack by the Danes (Vikings) on a region of Francia in 859 AD, where the peasants formed an association to defend themselves and fought off the Vikings, and drove them off without the assistance of the Carolingian rulers. This is reported by the Carolingians as brave but immoral, because Charlemagne had banned any such associations or militias, and military service wa…

I wonder if one day in the distant future, humans will each have their own autonomous mutually assured destruction devices hovering around them at all times, almost like a guardian angel. It would even the playing field in some ways.

I suspect they would have limited usage - both from the legal concerns/lack of utility but also because the obvious counters would be even more readily available - outrange the thing. Assuming it is relatively precise instead of carrying a kilogram of antimatter or something absurd.

The situation is 'very high information entropy' in the sense of it is a combination of both requiring both high technology proliferation and prosperity at the same time as severe and sustained instability for it to become remotely acceptable as a status quo instead of "National Guard? We need artillery on this maniac going around with a death drone. How the hell did he get it in the first place?" Theoretically a dual use guardian drone could say work for digging someone out of a collapsed building quickly which could also be lethal if misapplied but that is getting into 'keeping rattlesnake anti-venom in your pocket all times in Canada in case you get bit by one escaped from the zoo or potentially illegal exotic pet trade' levels in terms of effort and expense vs returns in safety.

Re: Could a Peasant Defeat a Knight in Battle?

#144

Post by Leherenn »

jml7c5 wrote: post #108
cmrdporcupine wrote: post #17

In the Annals of St Bertin there's mention of an attack by the Danes (Vikings) on a region of Francia in 859 AD, where the peasants formed an association to defend themselves and fought off the Vikings, and drove them off without the assistance of the Carolingian rulers. This is reported by the Carolingians as brave but immoral, because Charlemagne had banned any such associations or militias, and military service wa…

Do you have more detail on this? Is there supporting detail from other sources? It's not clear from my brief reading that the association was conclusively for self-defense and held no insurrectionary or political aspect.

It might have started for self-defence, but became insurrectionist once the vikings had been defeated. "Why should we pay fealty to a liege that fails at his most basic duty?"

The terms used are "conjurés/conjuration" (from Google: Middle English (also in the sense ‘oblige by oath’): from Old French conjurer ‘to plot or exorcise’, from Latin conjurare ‘band together by an oath, conspire’ (in medieval Latin ‘invoke’), from con- ‘together’ + jurare ‘swear’.). It seems to imply something more than just gather together for self-defence.

Re: Could a Peasant Defeat a Knight in Battle?

#145

Post by rusk »

briefcomment wrote: post #94
cmrdporcupine wrote: post #17

In the Annals of St Bertin there's mention of an attack by the Danes (Vikings) on a region of Francia in 859 AD, where the peasants formed an association to defend themselves and fought off the Vikings, and drove them off without the assistance of the Carolingian rulers. This is reported by the Carolingians as brave but immoral, because Charlemagne had banned any such associations or militias, and military service wa…

I wonder if one day in the distant future, humans will each have their own autonomous mutually assured destruction devices hovering around them at all times, almost like a guardian angel. It would even the playing field in some ways.

A boon for suicide bombers /s

What happens if one goes off beside another one? Do you get a daisy chain effect?

Re: Could a Peasant Defeat a Knight in Battle?

#146

Post by Robin_Message »

briefcomment wrote: post #94
cmrdporcupine wrote: post #17

In the Annals of St Bertin there's mention of an attack by the Danes (Vikings) on a region of Francia in 859 AD, where the peasants formed an association to defend themselves and fought off the Vikings, and drove them off without the assistance of the Carolingian rulers. This is reported by the Carolingians as brave but immoral, because Charlemagne had banned any such associations or militias, and military service wa…

I wonder if one day in the distant future, humans will each have their own autonomous mutually assured destruction devices hovering around them at all times, almost like a guardian angel. It would even the playing field in some ways.

The "slap drone" of Iain M. Banks' culture performs a similar function in a different way: IIRC, convicted murders are allowed out, but followed forever by an autonomous drone that will stun (slap) them to prevent further crimes.

Re: Could a Peasant Defeat a Knight in Battle?

#147

Post by asdff »

miles wrote: post #109
cmrdporcupine wrote: post #17

In the Annals of St Bertin there's mention of an attack by the Danes (Vikings) on a region of Francia in 859 AD, where the peasants formed an association to defend themselves and fought off the Vikings, and drove them off without the assistance of the Carolingian rulers. This is reported by the Carolingians as brave but immoral, because Charlemagne had banned any such associations or militias, and military service wa…

> the peasants formed an association to defend themselves and fought off the Vikings ... military service was reserved for aristocrats only ... The response of the Frankish leadership was to come in and massacre the peasants Strange that the peasants could fight back a group of Vikings ("the toughest warriors ever" according to National Geographic[0]) but not a bunch of aristocrats. [0] https://www.vikingmartialarts.…

Chances are the aristrocrats were mounted in heavy armor and trivially routed the peasants. Cavalry is powerful.

Re: Could a Peasant Defeat a Knight in Battle?

#148

Post by pluto9 »

7sigma wrote: post #142

If you want to see what a fully trained knight in armour can do see this video. https://youtu.be/8vYFFx4whoE There's a reason why they used hammers in battle. Was more ffective to bash the armour than try to cut between the plates

I'm not sure a cheesy short film with a ridiculous choreographed fight scene is the best example of "what a fully trained knight in armour can do". This isn't reality, it's someone's imagination.

Re: Could a Peasant Defeat a Knight in Battle?

#149

Post by isolli »

adamnemecek wrote: post #19

Surprised it doesn't mention Hussites https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hussites . Peasants (given they were armed with fire arms, one of the first large scale uses of firearms) defeated five(!!!) crusades.

Yes, with special mention to Jan Žižka, the mastermind behind the tactics that allowed peasants to defeat crusaders.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_%C5%BDi%C5%BEka

Re: Could a Peasant Defeat a Knight in Battle?

#150

Post by raducu »

defen wrote: post #112

One thing to keep in mind when imagining "Knight vs Peasant" combat is that it's not like they would be fighting in some sort of idealized battle arena. Knights have horses and peasants do not, which means that barring exceptional circumstances, the knight has the initiative to determine when and where combat happens. People without horses have an extremely difficult time fighting people with horses, beyond just the…

Knights and aristocracy held their power through force, so there is no question that knights could overwhelmingly defeat peasants.

However, what is often missed in the depictions of peasants is that they were much stronger than modern folk, they did kill animals quite often, they did fight other peasants quite often.

Free peasants were a different story from bound peasants, mountain peasants a different story from low lands.

I know because my grandparents were peasants from a mountainous region, you did not want to mess with those peasants.

I could go all they about the acts of aggression, strength and bravery I've witnessed (same on the contrary).

Such a peasant would not fight in pitch battle, but would simply burn their crops, take their cattle and sheep up the mountain and return in autumn when armies would go back home. They would setup ambushes, mostly targeting guides, but they were quite opportunistic.

It was remarkable reading Xenophon's account of fighting mountain people in ancient times -- while I did feel his disgust for them, the sense was that they could be quite dangerous when fighting on their home turf.

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