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Raspberry Pi 400 – First Impressions

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Re: Raspberry Pi 400 – First Impressions

#141

Post by tarruda »

exged wrote: post #32
tarruda wrote: post #28

I would consider using this for serious work if they had added support for 2.5 or m.2 drives. There are some third party raspberry pi 4 cases that support m.2 via an internal USB 3.0 adapter [1]. Considering they designed a custom PCB for this product, adding a native M.2 or SATA is a reasonable feature for something designed to replace a desktop PC [1]: https://www.argon40.com/argon-one-m-2-case-for-raspberry-pi-...

There aren't any free PCIe lanes on the SoC, so even if they added a bridge chip for a SATA / M.2 SSD it would have to be connected over USB. Besides, the device is $70. A $10 32GB eMMC chip would be a far more reasonable ask at this price point if greater reliability is desired.

I see, thanks.

Have you seen the compute module though? It exposes a PCIe slot via a separate I/O board. At first I assumed there was some free lanes, but now I see it doesn't exposea usb 3.0 ports, only 2.0.

Still, I would rather have a dedicated bus for storage with usb 2.0 rather than usb 3.0

[1]: https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/compute-module-4/?varia...

Re: Raspberry Pi 400 – First Impressions

#142

Post by candiodari »

justin66 wrote: post #91
walrus01 wrote: post #73

One of my main concerns about the use of a raspberry pi as a desktop PC is microSD card write lifespan. microsd cards were not meant to be used as the boot disk for a live operating system. The amount of times you can write over one sector on them, and the write wear leveling algorithms, are much worse than even a $45 consumer grade SATA3 interface SSD. Yes you can now boot a raspberry pi from an external usb3.0 hard…

> Yes you can now boot a raspberry pi from an external usb3.0 hard drive or SSD in an enclosure. But how many people actually do that? Judging by how often people talk about the feature online (or how often they enquired about the delay in implementating it on pi 4 - it's been possible with the 3 forever), a lot. > something like the raspberry pi but with a socket to plug in a cheap M.2 SATA or M.2 NVME SSD is needed…

> If you're trying to get this much value out of the thing, using either a legitimate, brand name USB ssd (not something cobbled together in a cheap enclosure), an industrial SD card built for embedded applications, or network booting are all good options.

Better option: if you use SD, use 2 and monitor.

Re: Raspberry Pi 400 – First Impressions

#143

Post by barumi »

justin66 wrote: post #91
walrus01 wrote: post #73

One of my main concerns about the use of a raspberry pi as a desktop PC is microSD card write lifespan. microsd cards were not meant to be used as the boot disk for a live operating system. The amount of times you can write over one sector on them, and the write wear leveling algorithms, are much worse than even a $45 consumer grade SATA3 interface SSD. Yes you can now boot a raspberry pi from an external usb3.0 hard…

> Yes you can now boot a raspberry pi from an external usb3.0 hard drive or SSD in an enclosure. But how many people actually do that? Judging by how often people talk about the feature online (or how often they enquired about the delay in implementating it on pi 4 - it's been possible with the 3 forever), a lot. > something like the raspberry pi but with a socket to plug in a cheap M.2 SATA or M.2 NVME SSD is needed…

> First things first, though: if you're really worried about storage reliability on these things (or anything), please stop prefacing your hardware suggestions with "cheap."

What would be the cost implications of adding SATA support for a Raspberry Pi?

And keep in mind that nowadays the price point of a fully kitted raspberry pi is already close to 100$.

Re: Raspberry Pi 400 – First Impressions

#144

Post by justin66 »

barumi wrote: post #143
justin66 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes you can now boot a raspberry pi from an external usb3.0 hard drive or SSD in an enclosure. But how many people actually do that? Judging by how often people talk about the feature online (or how often they enquired about the delay in implementating it on pi 4 - it's been possible with the 3 forever), a lot. > something like the raspberry pi but with a socket to plug in a cheap M.2 SATA or M.2 NVME SSD is needed…

> First things first, though: if you're really worried about storage reliability on these things (or anything), please stop prefacing your hardware suggestions with "cheap." What would be the cost implications of adding SATA support for a Raspberry Pi? And keep in mind that nowadays the price point of a fully kitted raspberry pi is already close to 100$.

As far as the BOM, you're asking the wrong guy, but someone upthread mentioned that it'd have to run off the usb, which is one of the reasons why you'd have to wonder what the point really is.

One very real cost would be the increase in size to the PCB and everyone's cases. Plus, we could talk about how external sata just isn't very good as a user experience, while usb is.

I haven't shopped for really cheap storage hardware lately but I question that there's really an area where sata could be a cost win.

> And keep in mind that nowadays the price point of a fully kitted raspberry pi is already close to 100$.

There's a really wide variance there, though - you can get a lot done for under $50.

Re: Raspberry Pi 400 – First Impressions

#145

Post by rkangel »

gambiting wrote: post #7
kristopolous wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

USB audio dongles are super cheap. You can get 2 of them for about $10. If I was on the design team for it I could eventually come around to being fine with it.

Yes, but it's "yet another" dongle for this machine which is meant to be an easy to use all-in-one friendly to beginners. Them using micro HDMI is already bizarre seeing as there's loads of room for a full size port and most people will need a dongle/adapter here, but not including an audio jack is crazy, seeing as the proper Rpi4 does have one!

> meant to be an easy to use all-in-one friendly to beginners

Unlike the "normal" Raspberry Pi this device has a fairly focused use case that you have summarised well here. It is designed to be plugged into an HDMI TV and used as a PC, with the great bonus of a cool GPIO connector. You make some choices and you make some sacrifices to meet cost and space targets. This also isn't an iPhone that costs $800.

As for fitting the HDMI on, there isn't loads of space for a full size port. I'm not saying it would be completely impossible but it would be challenging. Have a look at the photo of the board in this post:

https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/designing-raspberry-pi-400/

The non obvious thing looking at that photo is that the keyboard slopes back so you only have height at the front. Non-micro HDMI are surprisingly deep, without CAD looking up parts and looking up parts I can't tell if just wouldn't fit at all, but you certainly wouldn't be able to get much behind it. Note also that they couldn't work out a way to sensibly route the USB to the other side - it's clearly a busy board.

Re: Raspberry Pi 400 – First Impressions

#146

Post by FandangoRanger »

HeyHoJoe wrote: post #126
FandangoRanger wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I notice this comment repeated on every web site, Reddit, Slashdot, even 4chan. It’s too similar and comprehensive to be anything but astroturf. My suspicion is Intel’s still got sour grapes about burning billions on Edison, and are extra angry that people seem to be doing just great without x86.

Nah, I’m a real user. I just don’t find the raspberry pi to be very useful for me, even as a toy. Seriously, you think intel is going around badmouthing the raspberry pi because they’re threatened?

I'm sure they do, Internet shilling's big business and comments like yours don't happen by accident.

Re: Raspberry Pi 400 – First Impressions

#147

Post by jaster »

poisonarena wrote: post #89
jaster wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're looking for a fun use for your shelved rpi, I can recommand installing a retro-gaming distro such as recalbox ( https://www.recalbox.com/ ) or retropie ( https://retropie.org.uk/ ). I installed recalbox on a rpi3, and it runs nes/snes fine, and even some n64 games. On occasions I brought it along when visiting friends, and plugged it into the TV/projector with a couple of joysticks. It has been a blast! All…

thats always the suggestion, but every computer and laptop can easily emaulate all those things+ more.. I see no reason to use a rasp for that

Sure you can indeed. For me the compactness of the rpi was a plus however. Since you don't need a dedicated screen or a keyboard (recalbox interface is tailored for controllers), having only to carry the small rpi makes it more convenient and more suited to this use in my view.

Of course, if it's to play at mainly at home then I agree it's not as interesting.

Re: Raspberry Pi 400 – First Impressions

#148

Post by leoedin »

rkangel wrote: post #145
gambiting wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but it's "yet another" dongle for this machine which is meant to be an easy to use all-in-one friendly to beginners. Them using micro HDMI is already bizarre seeing as there's loads of room for a full size port and most people will need a dongle/adapter here, but not including an audio jack is crazy, seeing as the proper Rpi4 does have one!

> meant to be an easy to use all-in-one friendly to beginners Unlike the "normal" Raspberry Pi this device has a fairly focused use case that you have summarised well here. It is designed to be plugged into an HDMI TV and used as a PC, with the great bonus of a cool GPIO connector. You make some choices and you make some sacrifices to meet cost and space targets. This also isn't an iPhone that costs $800. As for fitt…

> This also isn't an iPhone that costs $800

Which coincidentally _also_ needs a dongle to connect to an analog speaker...

Re: Raspberry Pi 400 – First Impressions

#149

Post by HeyHoJoe »

FandangoRanger wrote: post #146
HeyHoJoe wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah, I’m a real user. I just don’t find the raspberry pi to be very useful for me, even as a toy. Seriously, you think intel is going around badmouthing the raspberry pi because they’re threatened?

I'm sure they do, Internet shilling's big business and comments like yours don't happen by accident.

Paranoia’s a hell of a drug.

Re: Raspberry Pi 400 – First Impressions

#150

Post by NotSammyHagar »

walrus01 wrote: post #81
freerobby wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, same problem with eMMC on Tesla's Tegra board. Solution: mount /var/log and other such partitions as ramdisks :)

That's really scary and a poor choice that something which is probably buried deep in the car, and costs thousands of dollars to remove and replace, is a soldered onboard flash drive which will fail from constant use. I'd be surprised if tesla didn't have embedded systems engineering responsible for this thing, and indeed even flash memory experts on staff, who are intimately familiar with all of the design problems…

I have a 5 year old model S and I ran into this failure. My car was about 4.5 years old, it was about 6 months after the initial 4 year warranty expired. I'd struggled with deciding to get an extended warranty or not - of course now I insist everyone should get one. They very generously let me purchase an extended warranty at repair time and let me use that toward that repair.

That was a really stupid design decision of course for Tesla to use the emmc in that way. I love my car but that was a bad day when the problem hit me.

It's been a great car even with a few problems (had one of the door handles replaced). Mine will be 6 years old soon, I will probably wait till it's about 8 years old for replacing it.

On the other hand, I have a friend with an 8 year old model S and he had no extended warranty and he hasn't had that problem.

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