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California Voters Exempt Uber, Lyft, DoorDash from Having to Reclassify Drivers

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Re: California Voters Exempt Uber, Lyft, DoorDash from Having to Reclassify Drivers

#141
post #109
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm aware-- and if Prop22 just grafted the ride-share businesses into those lists or overturned AB5 I'd have less to complain about it. Instead, Prop22 acts as a generalized shield against any act of the legislature which limits or imposes specific restrictions on rideshare app businesses by requiring a 7/8th's vote and requiring that they be "consistent with the purpose" of the prop22 amended law.

According to this link [1] the legislature can't change what the voter's passed through an initiative unless they send it back to the voter's again. So as per earlier comments, I'd interpret that as the 7/8th's vote requirement actually reducing the burden on the legislature. As long as they can get 7/8ths of the votes, they don't need to bring it back to the voter's again . "The California State Legislature may not…

Yes, it technically reduces the criteria for direct adjustments, but:

Proposition 22 imposes the same 7/8th requirement across a _massive_ scope, not just the specific text amended by the proposition itself but also for any statute that prohibits ridesharing apps from "performing a particular rideshare service or delivery service" or "otherwise imposes unequal regulatory burdens upon app-based drivers". Additionally, any law that would unionize app-based drivers is similarly subject to this requirement.

The threshold is so high that the legislature is effectively barred, and rather than just having the limitation apply to the measure itself is a generalized shield against legislation.

For example: No sex offenders on ridesharing apps? 7/8ths vote required. Separate tax for road wear created by inefficient routing by ridesharing apps? 7/8ths vote. (Prop13 and Prop26 eat your heart out!) Additional liability insurance requirements for rideshare drivers? 7/8ths vote. Law requiring ridesharing apps to automatically forward user's reports of assaults by drivers to the police? 7/8ths vote.

Essentially Prop22 acts as a fairly generalized shield against new laws that would interfere with the core activity of particular set of businesses.

In addition to the 7/8th requirement all amendments or other statutes that trigger Prop22's oversight are also required to be "consistent with the purpose" of Prop22 ("...to protect the individual right of every app-based ride share and delivery drivers to have the flexibility to set their own hours for where, when, and how they work...").

And if there is a really good cause to impinge the right of 'app-based' rideshare drivers to drive whatever hours whereever, or however they want? It seems like the answer even with unanimous support of the legislature is: Tough luck, time for another ballot initiative but this time it'll have the ride-share companies spending a hundreds of millions against it instead of for it and it'll still be a sweet deal at twice the price.

Have these companies shown themselves to be such good citizens, going out of their way to protect the public interest, that they could be trusted with this near diplomatic immunity level of protection? Of course not.

However... the drafting of Prop22 does allow laws restricting app-based rideshare so long as these laws impose criminal penalties. I wonder what would happen if the legislature became as shameless at exploiting legal loopholes as Uber has been? "Overwork app-based drivers? CEO right to jail! Under-pay app-based drivers? Right to jail, right away. Driving too fast: jail. Slow: jail. You make an appointment with the rider and a driver doesn't show up, believe it or not, jail, right away." It would be quite interesting as a television drama ... but I wouldn't expect such absurdity to be a good use of our public resources. :)

If I had to bet the courts won't allow Prop22 to have quite that expansive an effect, it's simply too offensive.

The end result is that the state will inevitability end up in a pile of time wasting litigation with Uber arguing that the people of California really intended to make them as exempt from the law as they've been acting as though they were for all these years.

Re: California Voters Exempt Uber, Lyft, DoorDash from Having to Reclassify Drivers

#142
post #99
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uber rides are either going to get really cheap, or they are going to go out of business. Waymo doesn't have the labor overhead and will eat their lunch. It is almost cute that we are trying to pass or block protections for a workforce that won't exist in 5 years.

I will take your bet. No way full self-driving is coming and no way Waymo will deliver a self-driving taxi in 5 years that will compete with a driver based taxi. I can see Waymo or the like picking gimmicky routes like Las Vegas airport to select hotels/stops or another easy route in an area without rain. I don't mean the self-driving meaning that keeps getting reinvented every couple years to kick the can down the r…

Waymo has a ride hailing service in Chandler:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/alanohnsman/2020/10/08/waymo-re...

Pretty sure they chose the area because of sunny skies and lack of rain, so if that’s what you consider a gimmicky route that’s fair.

Re: California Voters Exempt Uber, Lyft, DoorDash from Having to Reclassify Drivers

#143
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one is forcing them to do this work. They opt-in to being a driver. Slavery is coerced labor, how can you even make the comparison?

> Slavery is coerced labor, how can you even make the comparison? There are different levels of coercion. After all, even a literal slave doesn't have to work -- they can just allow themselves to be beaten to death. But given the choice between being beaten to death and working, most people choose working. But the fact is that even people who aren't slaves still have to have a place to live and something to eat. In t…

I fail to see how someone who can afford a car is a wage slave. Cars aren't exactly a cost-less enterprise. They're expensive. So clearly these people are making enough money to help fund that car payment.

These people aren't slaves to the system. They willingly are seeking their own self interests on their own time. They can quit tomorrow if they wanted to. The simple fact that they need money is irrelevant. They aren't some serf subservient to these Gig businesses. The simple fact that they have a car and a tank of gas alone goes to show they can literally go anywhere and get a better/stable job instead.

Wage slavery is when people essentially become serfs. Nobody in the US is even close to a serf. Even if they go homeless, there are plenty of homeless people that still get by every day and have the capability to move elsewhere for work. They aren't forced to work at mcdonalds until "master says so."

Re: California Voters Exempt Uber, Lyft, DoorDash from Having to Reclassify Drivers

#144
post #126
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another "user" is the taxpayer - who ultimately ends up paying for the social security, healthcare, and other unmet needs (lack of paid sick leave, lack of paid maternity/paternity leave etc.) of these contractors. So in a way, by exempting Uber from these rules, but not others, society is handing out a subsidy for both the passengers and drivers.

Which is fine, because that's progressively taxed. The alternative is higher prices which flatly burden everyone equally.

Yes, let's pretend that everyone of every economic class will be equally burdened by higher Uber/Lyft prices.

Look how SF voted on Prop 22. Doesn't reflect normal voting patterns against a regressive tax https://electionmapsf.com/

Re: California Voters Exempt Uber, Lyft, DoorDash from Having to Reclassify Drivers

#145

Good. The users and the drivers both wanted this. You may dislike hearing this, but it takes a lot to inject yourself into that arrangement and massively increase the cost because you want it done differently. I recognise that it appears to create "rules for thee but not for me" for these companies, but when they are so thoroughly satisfying both their customers and their workers, you should ask yourself if forcing t…

I don't buy that drivers would prefer to not have benefits, vacation time, over time pay, or any of the other things that come with being employees.

Why do you find hard to believe that there are people valuing their freedom and independence more than those benefits? Not everybody likes being an employee and I think that is great. Choice is a great thing to have.

Re: California Voters Exempt Uber, Lyft, DoorDash from Having to Reclassify Drivers

#146
post #2

A special exception for a narrow set of companies with an established history of abhorrent behaviour with requires a 7/8ths vote to overturn/modify and then pretending that this is something the legislature can update. It's hard for me to not feel disappointed with the public on this one.

Part of why I voted for prop 22 is because the list of special exemptions to AB5 is a mile long. On top of the original exemptions, we even passed AB2257 which added a few dozen more ( https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtm... ) I think prop 22 is flawed, but I'm using it as a referendum on AB5 (and I think it's marginally better than the alternative). AB5 is a defacto ban on casual use of the g…

How does the 7/8th requirement for changing Prop 22 square with your thinking of it as a referendum?

Everybody agrees that AB5 is flawed and needs more work. But Prop 22 let money-losing, worker-exploiting companies literally write the law they wanted and made sure nobody could change it. A referendum on AB5 would have forced discussion and improvement. This closes that off.

Re: California Voters Exempt Uber, Lyft, DoorDash from Having to Reclassify Drivers

#147
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The point is that this often isn't someone's primary job. They take a job at Walmart or driving a school bus, it doesn't pay very well, so they get off work and pick up some rides to supplement their income before going home. > They don't need health insurance because they got it through their first job or their spouse, and imposing that cost on the second job only requires them to get paid less or have less flexib…

Healthcare costs per capita are generally higher in the US than they are in Europe. I am curious whether or not you think we should focus on increasing spending to increase medicare coverage or if we should focus on decreasing healthcare costs for the country as a whole. The right answer is probably "both" but you can't exactly vote for "both" political parties. Its a boring answer anyway :)

> I am curious whether or not you think we should focus on increasing spending to increase medicare coverage or if we should focus on decreasing healthcare costs for the country as a whole.

Yes, both.

> focus on decreasing healthcare costs for the country as a whole

Most importantly, I believe that through the patent system 1) Pharmaceutical Corporations, together with 2), politicians - who are corrupted through lobbying and who thus make advantageous laws (for Corps) - are getting away with murder. Yash Tandon gives a great example of this below:

“During the 1980s and 1990s I worked in many countries in eastern and southern Africa, and then for four years at the South Centre—2005–09. I can say from my experience that the industrialised countries of the North have been trying systematically to block all efforts by the countries of the South to industrialise. Their mega-corporations have tried—and, alas, succeeded—in privatising knowledge, and using it to promote corporate profits over the lives of people."

[...]

“It is the seeds and pharmaceutical companies of the West that have pirated the knowledge of seeds and medicinal products from the South. But whereas in the South this knowledge was shared as a public asset, the Western companies, having learnt from the South, proceeded to claim it as their private property. They are guilty—morally guilty—for the avoidable deaths of millions of people in the South who cannot afford their ‘patented’ medicines against, for example, AIDS, malaria, tuberculosis and other killer diseases. It is a sordid story. But it is not all doom and gloom. Those who control the system (the global corporations and the international organisations that the West controls) do not get their own way entirely. Wars do not always end in the victory of the militarily or ‘intellectually’ powerful.”

- Yash Tandon, Trade Is War: The West's War Against the World

Re: California Voters Exempt Uber, Lyft, DoorDash from Having to Reclassify Drivers

#148
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will take your bet. No way full self-driving is coming and no way Waymo will deliver a self-driving taxi in 5 years that will compete with a driver based taxi. I can see Waymo or the like picking gimmicky routes like Las Vegas airport to select hotels/stops or another easy route in an area without rain. I don't mean the self-driving meaning that keeps getting reinvented every couple years to kick the can down the r…

Waymo has a ride hailing service in Chandler: https://www.forbes.com/sites/alanohnsman/2020/10/08/waymo-re... Pretty sure they chose the area because of sunny skies and lack of rain, so if that’s what you consider a gimmicky route that’s fair.

They specifically choose states close to the West Coast because the climates do not have serious weather or rain. Nevada, California, Arizona etc. SF is a weird city compared to other places with hills and odd obstructions so a lot of them moved to Phoenix for testing. From an outsider, the regulatory environment in Arizona appears to be easier for companies that want to do this type of testing as opposed to highly regulated California.

Re: California Voters Exempt Uber, Lyft, DoorDash from Having to Reclassify Drivers

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of why I voted for prop 22 is because the list of special exemptions to AB5 is a mile long. On top of the original exemptions, we even passed AB2257 which added a few dozen more ( https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtm... ) I think prop 22 is flawed, but I'm using it as a referendum on AB5 (and I think it's marginally better than the alternative). AB5 is a defacto ban on casual use of the g…

How does the 7/8th requirement for changing Prop 22 square with your thinking of it as a referendum? Everybody agrees that AB5 is flawed and needs more work. But Prop 22 let money-losing, worker-exploiting companies literally write the law they wanted and made sure nobody could change it. A referendum on AB5 would have forced discussion and improvement. This closes that off.

The 7/8th requirement is fantastic because we can all stop arguing about it now, unlike Prop 13. I’m glad that this issue has been decided basically once and for all, and I hope someone comes up with a future proposition with the same 7/8 requirement for Prop 13 so we stop arguing over that as well.

Re: California Voters Exempt Uber, Lyft, DoorDash from Having to Reclassify Drivers

#150

Maybe people just really like ubers?

Some people really like Lyft. I drive for both. Some riders just hate Uber.

I meant all of the exempted services, I wasn't trying to pick favourites :)
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