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Engineers, not racers, are the true drivers of success in motor sport

economist.com

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Re: Engineers, not racers, are the true drivers of success in motor sport

#141

Post by WalterBright »

exDM69 wrote: post #130
WalterBright wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've idly thought that if I was the F1 Czar I'd ban all transistors in the cars, except for in safety equipment. Not even a radio. Have the operation of the car be up to driver skill, not computer programmer virtuosity. (And I'm a programmer!) Of course, it is possible to make mechanical computers, but they are very costly to develop, heavy, take up lots of space, hard to modify, etc. Besides, it's a lost art.

Transistors have been in racing cars since 1967 when the Cosworth DFV engine, with a "transistorized ignition" system, was put to the back of the Lotus 49, driven by Jim Clark and Graham Hill. Going all mechanical would be going back to an era long gone. It would be difficult to attract funding for a formula racing series (not a spec series) based on obsolete technology. That said, the early 1960s era of 1.5 liter V8…

My 1972 Dodge came with a "transistorized" ignition. It was one transistor!

(I replaced it with an MSD ignition box.)

Re: Engineers, not racers, are the true drivers of success in motor sport

#142

Post by axegon_ »

bsanr2 wrote: post #136
axegon_ wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I said, all of them have immense talent, but apart from the Red Bull-Vettel dominance era, Hamilton has always been in the best car and he was initially pushed forward by Ron Dennis of all people. I honestly can't think of anyone in F1 history who can say they were at all times backed up by people like Dennis, Fry, Lacey, Hakkinen, Wolff, Lauda from their first day in F1... No one comes even close to that. He's ha…

Maybe he was just good enough, young enough, to get people behind him? What is with this insistence on stripping him of his agency in his success? Are people threatened by it?

At the end of the day life isn't fair. That's said, if you look at last year's season when Ferrari had a more decent car (far worse thank Mercedes still), Leclerc with all his lack of experience and poor judgement at times, slaughtered Hamilton in qualifying. That genuinely makes me question if Hamilton's success isn't largely a consequence of Merc's well known superiority. On that topic, I think even Bottas has all the qualities and skills to beat Hamilton but he is mentally losing the battle. Imagine if Hamilton had to face someone like Leclerc, Vettel, Sainz, Russel, or even Raikkonen despite his age or even Riccardo or Hulkenberg. If you look at the biography of each one of those, they had it considerably more difficult than Hamilton.

Re: Engineers, not racers, are the true drivers of success in motor sport

#143

Post by WalterBright »

TheGallopedHigh wrote: post #129
WalterBright wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've watched a couple documentaries on Senna. They'd all say Senna just drove faster than the others. Nothing said about just what Senna did to be faster, which was very frustrating. I didn't believe that Senna did anything magical.

This video might help explain specific techniques that he used to be faster: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4kcLyYhThE

Very illuminating, thanks! I've also heard you can get slightly more lateral grip in a turn by rapidly moving the steering wheel back and forth - for the same reason as the throttle stamping and brake stamping.

Re: Engineers, not racers, are the true drivers of success in motor sport

#144

Post by Sherl »

randlet wrote: post #49
olivermarks wrote: post #9

Depends on the motorsport. Take drag racing. top fuel driver after reaction time is mostly along for the ride, depends on quality of engineering to win/lose. Alcohol FC is immensely complicated to drive, also pro stock which is pure driving skill. MotoGP motor cycle racing is highly skilled and is IMO far, far more exciting than Formula One which used to be the fastest/most expensive formula amongst multiple division…

MotoGP obviously doesn't have the same level of tech as F1 but it is the apex of racing series IMO. Dorna has done a great job with the rules to keep the series competitive in recent years. It's amazing that there are 5 out of 6 manufacturers legitimately able to produce wins this year!

Two wheelers are inherently difficult to balance/ride design than a four wheeler.

Ex- vehicle engineer at a three letter company.

Re: Engineers, not racers, are the true drivers of success in motor sport

#145

Post by joshu »

WalterBright wrote: post #126
joshu wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i have a lotus 23 of the same era. they are wonderful cars. uncomplicated and incredibly good handling feel.

I'm very envious!

come drive it? if i ever get the engine back...

this is what it looks like in action. https://jalopnik.com/don-t-feel-bad-if-you-get-passed-by-a-p...

Re: Engineers, not racers, are the true drivers of success in motor sport

#146

Post by joshu »

joshu wrote: post #145
WalterBright wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm very envious!

come drive it? if i ever get the engine back... this is what it looks like in action. https://jalopnik.com/don-t-feel-bad-if-you-get-passed-by-a-p...

(i am the driver in the yellow car. I'm doing close to 100mph in that video, and the guy in the porsche is probably north of 130?)

Re: Engineers, not racers, are the true drivers of success in motor sport

#147

Post by olivermarks »

joshu wrote: post #145
WalterBright wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm very envious!

come drive it? if i ever get the engine back... this is what it looks like in action. https://jalopnik.com/don-t-feel-bad-if-you-get-passed-by-a-p...

where are you running? Laguna Seca?

Re: Engineers, not racers, are the true drivers of success in motor sport

#148

Post by rurban »

Having worked in F1 can confirm. We even simulated the various aspects, engine, gearbox, vehicle (aerodynamics, breaks, tires, ...) and driver independently. So you can answer the question when you place this driver (the AI driver) into this model, what the difference would be. But normally this question is moot as you test the most important aspects, which are now the engine and aerodynamics.

But don't forget, some drivers are excellent engineers by themselves, which was ie critical for Ferrari to get proper feedback from testing to R&D. In older times they didn't have simulators as everyone else, they always tested in real conditions on their home track Maranello. Or look at Niki Lauda's famous feedback and analysis qualities. You don't get that just from engineering.

Another important aspect: budget. Money can buy better simulation and engineering, which you cannot really compete with. That's why it needs to be so heavily regulated.

Re: Engineers, not racers, are the true drivers of success in motor sport

#149

Post by bsanr2 »

axegon_ wrote: post #142
bsanr2 wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe he was just good enough, young enough, to get people behind him? What is with this insistence on stripping him of his agency in his success? Are people threatened by it?

At the end of the day life isn't fair. That's said, if you look at last year's season when Ferrari had a more decent car (far worse thank Mercedes still), Leclerc with all his lack of experience and poor judgement at times, slaughtered Hamilton in qualifying. That genuinely makes me question if Hamilton's success isn't largely a consequence of Merc's well known superiority. On that topic, I think even Bottas has all…

They said the same thing when Maria Sharapova beat Serena Williams.

Re: Engineers, not racers, are the true drivers of success in motor sport

#150

Post by atmosx »

beastieboyce wrote: post #138
atmosx wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

McLaren’s driver duo in 1990 were Ayrton Senna and Allen Prost. Are you sure the engineers weren’t just petty little creatures trying to get some spotlight? I can assure you that no engineer could win a race against either one. Additionally, Senna has proved that he do “well” with much inferior cars, there must be something going on there as well... As someone who races every now and then for fun, I can assure you th…

Senna and Gerhard Berger in 1990. Alain Prost had switched to Ferrari.

Yes, that's accurate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1990_Formula_One_World_Champio...
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