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How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

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Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#141

Post by renewiltord »

Apocryphon wrote: post #133
renewiltord wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but if I make the Brazen Bull, and someone else gets it, they're going to put me in the Brazen Bull with my like-minded compatriots, which sort of interrupts the "found a new one" part. Those guys are waiting on the sidelines and they're stronger than you so when you make the weapon they will take it from you and they'll point it at me. You're no opponent to me, but I've got the Maginot Line and you're the Low…

If your argument relies on the abstract notion that something created can be weaponized against you, then you can extend that argument to any form of human creation or even human self-perpetuation. In which case then your own defense against something being used against you might as well be existential suicide, because in your view the game is so inherently stacked against you, the only winning move is not to play. W…

Well, not anything. Some specific things. For instance, I don't fear a union of Appalachian postal workers. If you go help them unionize, you won't find me standing in the way. If you want to unionize Colorado glass workers, I will cheer you on from here. If the proletariat in the steel mills of Pittsburgh wish to unite, I wish them well.

But tech is dominated by rampant xenophobia from the have-nots. They fear the Chinese, the Indians, the god-knows-who-else. This much is clear. While they are weak and disunited, their force is dissipated in online froth. If they are united, they can probably move mountains.

So, while the status quo is undesirable to me, I'm not all that keen on your providing a platform for xenophobes to unite. Preventing this egg from hatching is the optimal play.

Alternatively, you could adopt a measure of good faith: A founding immutable tenet of all these organizations can be that they will always act to increase the number of legal immigrants that can arrive in America. It's pretty easy to demonstrate that the bomb cannot work against me and all those millions who I count similar to me.

So show me.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#142

Post by Apocryphon »

renewiltord wrote: post #125
Apocryphon wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's rather parochial and essentialist to imagine that American labor unions are inherently anti-immigration. This country was founded by immigrants after all, and certainly more recent immigrants can bring in new innovations that can improve our current flawed institutions. Perhaps the next generation of labor unions can do better. To imagine that there is a "context of America" that is fixed and unchanging is to bo…

True, it is a bit unfair to be prejudiced that way. But you know the famous saying: "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me". I haven't forgotten how Avalon and Peru and Excelsior came to be. And when I tried, it was brought home to me again why I shouldn't.

There is a rich irony in your evocation. As a former resident of that neighborhood, and as someone from that continent once denied, I can see that times can change. Perhaps this country has. And even labor unions, too.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#143

Post by onion2k »

Apocryphon wrote: post #112
onion2k wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tech workers are in so much demand that they don't really suffer such a disparity of negotiating power, like workers in other industries. How do we test this hypothesis? Do we know that tech companies couldn't afford to double the wages of all their staff, or is that an assumption we've made based on high wages relative to other industries ? I imagine the likes of Apple could certainly pay their devs a lot more.

$403k per employee. https://www.digitalinformationworld.com/2020/08/research-rev... Not just their devs, but all of their workers.

That certainly makes it sound like tens of thousands of developers have failed to negotiate a salary that reflects their actual value to the business they work for.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#144

Post by renewiltord »

Apocryphon wrote: post #142
renewiltord wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, it is a bit unfair to be prejudiced that way. But you know the famous saying: "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me". I haven't forgotten how Avalon and Peru and Excelsior came to be. And when I tried, it was brought home to me again why I shouldn't.

There is a rich irony in your evocation. As a former resident of that neighborhood, and as someone from that continent once denied, I can see that times can change. Perhaps this country has. And even labor unions, too.

I'm eager to believe you're right. Which of your favourite unions has an immutable tenet to be pro-immigration?

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#145

Post by dpc_pw »

heavyset_go wrote: post #84
dpc_pw wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions are just another idea that sounds great on paper, only if you don't consider second and third order effects. They don't serve the workers, they serve themselves (like pretty much any organization). Tech workers are in so much demand that they don't really suffer such a disparity of negotiating power, like workers in other industries. Many software companies offer equity, which makes employers the shareholders.…

> Tech workers are in so much demand that they don't really suffer such a disparity of negotiating power Nonsense. Adobe, Apple, Google, Intel, Intuit, Pixar, Lucasfilm and eBay all colluded with each other to keep tech worker compensation below its market rate[1]. Good luck negotiating a group health plan that an employer buys as a single employee. > Given all that I personally think the downsides of unions in tech…

> The facts are that white collar employees that are union members have higher pay[2], better benefits, more time off, and report higher life satisfaction[3] compared to their non-union peers.

Of course they do. Because Unions drive competitiveness down, decrease efficiency, increase costs and so on. A lot of people would be very satisfied if they didn't have to work as hard and their paycheck would be pretty effortlessly guaranteed, and competition within the industry was kept in check.

But everybody else have to pay for it . And then naive socialists who advance labor unions forget about it, and start another campaign on why can't blue collar workers afford any white collar services anymore. Why are public teachers collectively not doing great job despite second in the world spending per student. And then riot on the streets why some cops are shooting people for no good reason, after years of people reporting their abuse. (I'm not saying that unions are the only or even main reason, but they sure do contribute to the problem).

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#147

Post by username90 »

TT3351 wrote: post #135
eplanit wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions are the antithesis of a meritocracy. Try promoting based on seniority over merit in a tech. business, and I doubt you'll stay competitive for very long. I don't know if kickstarter counts as a pure "tech company". They use technology, but they don't create it. Their customers are activists, so it's not surprising that their employees are, too.

Whenever I see "meritocracy" used like this, my hair stands on end. From Wikipedia: "Although the concept has existed for centuries, the term "meritocracy" is relatively new. It was used pejoratively by British politician and sociologist Michael Dunlop Young in his 1958 satirical essay The Rise of the Meritocracy, which pictured the United Kingdom under the rule of a government favouring intelligence and aptitude (me…

Meritocracy starting out as leftist satire doesn't mean the concept doesn't have merit.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#148

Post by Apocryphon »

renewiltord wrote: post #144
Apocryphon wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a rich irony in your evocation. As a former resident of that neighborhood, and as someone from that continent once denied, I can see that times can change. Perhaps this country has. And even labor unions, too.

I'm eager to believe you're right. Which of your favourite unions has an immutable tenet to be pro-immigration?

Even a cursory glance at contemporary tech movements show that they are largely culturally progressive in nature. Anything from the TWC reveals that they fit in with the general leftist Bay Area political milieu:

https://techworkerscoalition.org

https://logicmag.io/the-making-of-the-tech-worker-movement/f...

https://www.theverge.com/2017/1/13/14264804/palantir-immigra...

If you think any of these groups are going to produce something that can be turned into a nativist movement, then you don't seem to have a clear idea about the state of modern politics.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#149

Post by heavyset_go »

renewiltord wrote: post #80
Apocryphon wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know your big fear is that SWE unions would push for anti-immigrant protectionism, but a cursory glance at HN reveals that the industry workers are disgruntled about everything from ageism to unpaid crunchtime to lack of compensation transparency to technical interviews to open offices (now a moot point) to HR inability to prevent sexism or racism. All issues that could potentially be more compelling to an actual S…

Admittedly, I did weaken a little when my friends told me about their experience at Caviar. It did feel like collective bargaining would have served them well. But yesterday I saw 1280 comments renewing my resolve¹. No, I will not build a big bomb and put it in the hands of a capricious mob. It sort of reminds me of the Sierra Club in SF. I recall it being some sort of enviro org but now all they discuss is housing a…

I looked through several pages of that HN thread for people discussing unions in any context. I found your comment[1] and an anti-union comment by rayiner[2].

The only other comments I found were by union proponents, who celebrated the fact that with unions, it wouldn't matter if someone was an immigrant, or how many immigrants worked in the US, because unions would protect them and native citizens alike and equally[3]:

> I feel like rather than pitting immigrants against native born workers, and trying to come up with the perfect arcane rule, we should have sectoral bargaining where the workers could negotiate pay standards directly with their employers. Then it wouldn't matter where someone is from, because they'd be covered by that contract, and the government could get out of the way of the labor market.

To me, it seems like you're projecting anti-immigrant sentiments on people who are both pro-immigration and pro-union.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24704597

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24703750

[3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24702968

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#150

Post by polygotdomain »

username90 wrote: post #137
polygotdomain wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This perspective is frustrating, as it paints unions as an entirely negative endeavor. They're not and there are trade offs. Those trade offs may be a net positive or a net negative, but only highlighting the negative doesn't do any good. >with its own politics and power struggles and debates and meetings... A union doesn't even necessarily act in your interests. It acts in the interests of the majority of members If…

> don't join the union. This isn't an option in USA unless you live in a right to work state. The US left pushes hard against right to work, meaning everyone will be forced to join workplace unions when/if they are formed. This includes basically all tech hotspots including California and New York, if your colleagues organizes a union there you will be forced to join. This include this Kickstarter union btw, likely a…

>The US left pushes hard against right to work

Because right to work is a union-busting tactic

>meaning everyone will be forced to join workplace unions when/if they are formed

This is wrong in a number of ways. First off, the formation of a union does not require that all employees instantaneously join it. Second, the union still needs to have an agreement with an employer. So if your workplace doesn't unionize, it doesn't matter if the one on the other side of town does. It doesn't magically just flip an "isUnion" bit and completely change everyone's employment situation in one fell swoop.

>if your colleagues organizes a union there you will be forced to join

If you workplace unionizes, then you _may_ be forced to join. There is no guarantee that a union would force joining to keep your job, although historically that has been the case. Much of that was due to a lot of the improvements that unions were negotiating for being very hard to "split" between union an non-union members (i.e. safer machines in a factory were a benefit to everyone, not just union members). In a tech union, who's to say that has to be that way. If unions negotiated for things like always having the latest hardware for members, it would be easier for non-union members at the same shop to be given whatever hardware your employer decided. Basically, a tech union may not be bound to the same constraints as traditional unions might have been.

>likely a lot of its members don't actually want to be a part of the union.

But if it's members don't want to be part of the union, then why is there a union. Part of that statement doesn't jive with the other.

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