Fasting improves chemotherapy results and protects from side effects: study • Hacker News Board

Re: Fasting improves chemotherapy results and protects from side effects: study

#141

Post by agumonkey » Tue, Sep 15, 2020, 3:47 PM UTC

mmhsieh wrote: post #13

Cro_on wrote: post #10

If there were ever a panacea, it would be fasting. The more tight and widespread the research becomes, the more that we prove what humanity has known anecdotally throughout civilisation. From being a Roman cure for epileptic seizures, through the integral practice in most religions, and to the 21st century where we start to prove that it increases both healthspan and lifespan. I find it quite interesting that somethi…

while on fasts, you get an energy level and mental clarity that has to be felt to be believed. everyone should try it at least once.

I felt something a bit similar, that I assume is your brain abandoning the desire for stimulus from food, leading you to go deep into whatever else to feel something. Very nice trick indeed.

Re: Fasting improves chemotherapy results and protects from side effects: study

#142

Post by yurishimo » Tue, Sep 15, 2020, 3:50 PM UTC

NewOrderNow wrote: post #126

markus92 wrote: post #27

Interesting study with, as always, a lot of caveats. The most we can take from this is that it's worth to study more, the effect is existing but not extreme. I don't get the submitted title here claiming that it protects from side effects. The study does not mention this at all, just that the side effects are similar despite omission of dexamethason in the fasting arm of the trial - it increases appetite, so makes se…

I started fasting every Monday for multiple reasons: reduce caloric intake, the recent studies on reduction of cancer growth (family history cancer and heart issues), and optimizing brain functions. What are some of the downsides to doing this?

Hello! Long time faster here (lost over 80lbs in about 9 months with basically zero exercise).

One potential downside to steady regimented fasting _when combined_ with caloric restriction, is a decrease in your basal metabolic rate (BMR).

Our bodies are very good at adapting to "the new normal" and will optimize itself to function on the fuel you give it. This is true in both directions. If you eat less, your body will learn to live on less, and if you eat more, eventually your body will ramp up to try and burn more energy to try and reach an equilibrium.

When fasting, it's important to keep your caloric intake up during brief eating windows. Otherwise, your body will adjust, and when you stop fasting, the slightly increased caloric intake will cause you to gain weight before your body readjusts to the new normal. Many fasting theorists suggest that fasting at random intervals is the best strategy for weight loss without reducing BMR. If your body is used to burning 3000 calories a day just to keep you alive, it can't ramp down those cells immediately so it needs to instead convert stored fat to energy and burn that instead.

These aren't fasting specific, but oftentimes in the western world, we begin fasting as a means to an end (weight loss) and often combine it with other dietary changes, like eating less/healthier.

The other downside is literal starvation or the development of an eating disorder, but those are pretty obvious.

I saw a low-budget documentary on YouTube[0] a couple of weeks ago talking about "fasting retreats" in Russia and now parts of Europe that are seeing great results with patients water fasting for 2+ weeks. They're treating everything from Diabetes to arthritis and dementia. Pretty cool stuff.

Personally, I definitely have seen the light and will likely continue fasting regularly in some form the rest of my life. Since I just turned 26 last month, that's going to be a while! I'm currently half way through a 72 hour fast and feeling great. Just had a cup of coffee and some electrolyte spiked water this morning. I still have about 50 pounds to lose but I'm hopefully for my future now and I'm a lot healthier.

[0] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1b08X-GvRs

Re: Fasting improves chemotherapy results and protects from side effects: study

#143

Post by kongolongo » Tue, Sep 15, 2020, 3:50 PM UTC

crusso wrote: post #91

bad_user wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet, most of what you said is bullshit that's not evidence based. "Autophagy", that famous process which supposedly happens during fasting, that miraculously regenerates us, actually happens during caloric restriction, and it's actually a daily process that happens during the night, in everyone, while glycogen stores get naturally depleted. And we have no evidence that increased autophagy levels are beneficial, q…

"bullshit", "quackery", ""healers" and witches" Is all that really necessary? When it comes to human health, the unknowns are legion. Medical science is in its infancy, but too many act as though it's a mature discipline built upon rock-solid theories with few problems. 20 years ago, I noticed that my mental fog cleared up and I felt healthier when I ate very low carb, I looked to pioneers like Atkins and others who…

The food pyramid was never backed by any high quality evidence. It was primarily pushed by various agriculture lobbies.

Calories in calories out is 100% valid for weight loss. The problem is that people interpret it to somehow be a claim on overall health when it is just a statement on weight gain and loss, which while can be beneficial to health, isn't everything.

A calorie is just a calorie, so much as color is color. Its a single property of food that can be compared. If you want to lose weight that is the property you primarily need to look at. If you care about overall health then obviously there is a lot more to it than just calories. People somehow interpreted a calorie is just a calorie as a claim that all food is the same when its just saying that from a weight loss perspective, the energy component from any food source is the same -- there are no further claims about nutrition content.

Re: Fasting improves chemotherapy results and protects from side effects: study

#144

Post by hanche » Tue, Sep 15, 2020, 3:53 PM UTC

me_me_me wrote: post #79

hourislate wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have fasted 100 lbs away over the last 2 years. I adhere to an 18/6 time delay eating schedule but have done 2-3 day fasts with 1 refeed meal for a month at a time. I've also done countless 5-7 day fasts. I've gone as long as 12 days with nothing but water. There were many months where I could count the number of times I ate on one hand. My last go was every other day with just one meal on my eating days. I did tha…

> I've gone as long as 12 days with nothing but water. This is dangerous and please don't encourage others to do only water fast. Pure water fast is dangerous beyond 4 days or so. You need to supplement minerals while on per-longed fast. Salt, magnesium and potassium are vital to regulatory processes in your body. When your body uses up all reserves it will not be able to sustain those processes. It is serious busine…

I remember reading about someone who fasted for an entire year. Of course he was morbidly obese when he started, he took supplements, and he was under strict medical supervision for the duration of the fast. (Sorry, don't remember the source.)

Re: Fasting improves chemotherapy results and protects from side effects: study

#145

Post by narwally » Tue, Sep 15, 2020, 3:53 PM UTC

xutopia wrote: post #33

mmhsieh wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

while on fasts, you get an energy level and mental clarity that has to be felt to be believed. everyone should try it at least once.

I did a 3 day fast to see what it was all about. The energy levels were not there. I would get tired after a short brisk walk. Physically I was weaker but still had burst strength just no endurance or cardio. Mentally however I found myself unable to have too many variables in my head and my mind was not more able to focus on something but less distracted with extraneous thoughts. I could if I wanted to shut off the…

Did you supplement with any vitamins or electrolytes? I've done a few 100hr fasts and definitely experienced a decrease in physical energy, but my mental clarity was always improved. I have ADD and use a mix of intermittent fasting and alternate-day fasting as one form of my treatment.

Re: Fasting improves chemotherapy results and protects from side effects: study

#146

Post by wonder_er » Tue, Sep 15, 2020, 3:58 PM UTC

hengheng wrote: post #135

wonder_er wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a doctor, but after reading Tripping Over the Truth: The Metabolic Theory of Cancer [0] I'd strongly suggest she start fasting, or, far better, order yourself a copy of the book (epubs available for purchase/torrent) and read it, decide for yourself. There are a lot of resources listed in the book for people who have cancer. I'm trying to get people to read the book. Average people, for sure, but also people…

Why is it that as soon as cancer comes up as a topic, people stop exchanging arguments and start selling books instead, where normally they would be paraphrasing and occasionally referencing something.

I left a longer answer to a similar question here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24260568

A book is nothing but a long, detailed, carefully-researched argument. Or, at least the book I'm recommending is that.

If there are words I can say to convince you to read the book, please tell me them.

I'm literally paying people to read the book.[0]

I would love suggestions on how to improve the average discourse on the topic. What would you suggest?

Could you read through the linked thread, tell me if there's anything there that I should bring over here?

[0]: https://josh.works/mike-clayville-can-have-a-huge-impact-on-...

Re: Fasting improves chemotherapy results and protects from side effects: study

#147

Post by Yizahi » Tue, Sep 15, 2020, 4:01 PM UTC

inglor_cz wrote: post #122

Yizahi wrote: post #60

I'm not doubting the results (yet), but I just can't understand how is this possible. Chemotherapy basically damages host cells, with a lot of collateral damage. It already can cause all sorts of digestive tract problems and weight loss among other things. And now they propose to cut energy intake even more. How is this beneficial I can't understand.

Chemotherapy is tuned to kill cells that divide. Cancer cells happen to divide a lot, but sometimes normal healthy cells do too. (Not all of them.) Thus they become collateral damage along the cancerous ones. Hence nausea and other unpleasant effects. If you can persuade the normal healthy cells to hunker down and stop dividing for a while, the killing effect of the drugs will concentrate on the cancerous cells alone…

Got it, thanks for explanation

Re: Fasting improves chemotherapy results and protects from side effects: study

#148

Post by intotheabyss » Tue, Sep 15, 2020, 4:02 PM UTC

roystonvassey wrote: post #85

me_me_me wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've gone as long as 12 days with nothing but water. This is dangerous and please don't encourage others to do only water fast. Pure water fast is dangerous beyond 4 days or so. You need to supplement minerals while on per-longed fast. Salt, magnesium and potassium are vital to regulatory processes in your body. When your body uses up all reserves it will not be able to sustain those processes. It is serious busine…

Interesting. Any studies that validate the first point? I recall research talking about how there’s little muscle wastage until day 21 in normal healthy adults. Keen to know if we have learned more in this space

I know this is true just anecdotally. I'm totally ripped after a 7 day fast with none of my muscle wasting away, just the fat.

Re: Fasting improves chemotherapy results and protects from side effects: study

#149

Post by voisin » Tue, Sep 15, 2020, 4:05 PM UTC

yurishimo wrote: post #142

NewOrderNow wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I started fasting every Monday for multiple reasons: reduce caloric intake, the recent studies on reduction of cancer growth (family history cancer and heart issues), and optimizing brain functions. What are some of the downsides to doing this?

Hello! Long time faster here (lost over 80lbs in about 9 months with basically zero exercise). One potential downside to steady regimented fasting _when combined_ with caloric restriction, is a decrease in your basal metabolic rate (BMR). Our bodies are very good at adapting to "the new normal" and will optimize itself to function on the fuel you give it. This is true in both directions. If you eat less, your body wi…

> One potential downside to steady regimented fasting _when combined_ with caloric restriction, is a decrease in your basal metabolic rate (BMR).

Check out The Complete Guide to Intermittent Fasting. The research he cites shows that the effect you describe occurs in caloric restriction diets, not fasting. Fasting increases HGH and maintains BMR.

Perhaps what you are describing is the early days of fasting when your body is becoming fat adapted and you feel a bit sluggish, but after a short period your energy levels return to normal (for me it was less than a few weeks, 5 years ago, and my wife just started fasting with me and she is adapted and back to full energy while fasting after two weeks).

Re: Fasting improves chemotherapy results and protects from side effects: study

#150

Post by narwally » Tue, Sep 15, 2020, 4:07 PM UTC

wincy wrote: post #54

lawlorino wrote: post #22

Since this is likely to attract a lot of fasting practicioners to the comments I want to ask - I've occasionally tried out fasting or severe calorie restriction in the past but I always seem to get dizzy, weak and shaky in the first 24 hours and have to give up. This seems like a normal physiological response to be honest, how are people either avoiding or coping with this?

I’m by no means an expert, but I think there’s some amount of adaptation that occurs. I feel like I had to “train” my body to fast. I had a similar problem and it was really unpleasant the first time I tried a fast, but recently did a three day fast with no discomfort right until the end. The end was weird because I told myself I was going to break my fast, and my stomach kicked into action too early, making me sick.…

I had a similar experience with my first extended fast. I was just going to do three days, but I felt really good and not at all hungry at that point, so I extended it a day. But when went to break the fast, as soon as I started eating the light salad and broth I had made, I became instantly ravenous and no longer had any self control. So what started as a light salad ended with mozzarella sticks and a whole pack of Oreos. I no longer keep junk food in the house if I'm doing a fast.

The salt and other electrolytes is crucial as you mentioned. If you don't supplement you'll actually get some pretty intense cravings. It was the first time I understood why deer love salt licks. I would have licked on one of those like it was a tootsie pop.