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When is it okay for a lawyer to lie? (2018)

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Re: When is it okay for a lawyer to lie? (2018)

#141

Post by Iv »

pabs3 wrote: post #137
pabs3 wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Debian ML policy linked above goes a fair way to making truly open source deep learning models. The biggest problem with the policy is they do not address the economic disparity that means only folks with a lot of money can train a model even if they had all the training software, drivers and source data under a free license etc. Perhaps Debian can get enough donated compute time that we can solve this though. Th…

Some links to Debian mailing list discussions: https://lists.debian.org/msgid-search/33417ce2bcf9b6a0efaf47... https://lists.debian.org/msgid-search/20190608184309.GA10146... https://lists.debian.org/msgid-search/f544829dcd6c0f92ea11cd... https://lists.debian.org/msgid-search/20180712123524.GA25751...

Thanks! It really gave some good insights!

Re: When is it okay for a lawyer to lie? (2018)

#142

Post by dodobirdlord »

lmilcin wrote: post #140
dodobirdlord wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lawyer could be disbarred for lying to a judge, but in practice it is extremely infrequent that lawyers are disbarred, even for relatively severe misconduct. I also personally think that the standards for what constitutes misconduct should be more broad, and should extend to cover bad faith use of the legal system for purposes other than seeking legal rulings, like harassing people or wasting their time or money. T…

Bad faith and basically anything that is only in your mind is such a difficult thing to prove and that's why it is so problematic. There are judges who are sensitive to it and will go out of their way to punish it. I think part of the problem is that there are many occasions to "fix" the process by getting case resolved in a state that is known to be lenient to certain kind of behavior (very popular with patent troll…

> Bad faith and basically anything that is only in your mind is such a difficult thing to prove and that's why it is so problematic.

While true, this is to a certain extent the reason why we have judges. We already rely on judges to dismiss lawsuits that are illegitimate, and since filing an illegitimate lawsuit demonstrates either incompetence or malice nothing really needs to be proved about the state of the lawyers mind.

Re: When is it okay for a lawyer to lie? (2018)

#143

Post by pabs3 »

Iv wrote: post #139
pabs3 wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Debian ML policy linked above goes a fair way to making truly open source deep learning models. The biggest problem with the policy is they do not address the economic disparity that means only folks with a lot of money can train a model even if they had all the training software, drivers and source data under a free license etc. Perhaps Debian can get enough donated compute time that we can solve this though. Th…

Thanks for the links below, reading these opinions took me two more hours of my time but helped me grind some thoughts! First a quick answer to your two last questions. Programs and binaries are widely recognized as copyrightable. What I am wondering is whether the action of compiling a program constitutes a contribution worthy of protection and of additional copyright. To give a concrete example, imagine I am a comp…

One other thing is the economic aspects, I just saw this on HN today:

https://learning-at-home.github.io/ https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24370510

Re: When is it okay for a lawyer to lie? (2018)

#144

Post by codesections »

bdowling wrote: post #124
blaser-waffle wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (And there are strong parallels between big tech and biglaw, especially for junior devs/associates, but that's a bit of a tangent) Are there parallels? I mean to some degree all large, well paying orgs are going to have similarities, but a plucky undergrad coming out of CalTech will get $130k+ at a FAANGM or orgs that pay roughly in that continuum, and be able to jump to all sorts of other options, while most newly…

> average salaries of $70-$80k USD > ruthless wageslavery at BigLaw Big law associates start at $190k, straight out of law school. Big law associates are, however, the top graduates from the top law schools. Most new law graduates don’t make that much, just like most new CS grads don’t make FAANG starting salaries.

> Big law associates start at $190k, straight out of law school.

Yeah, that was the sort of BigLaw I was comparing to big tech in the grandparent.

Re: When is it okay for a lawyer to lie? (2018)

#145

Post by Iv »

pabs3 wrote: post #143
Iv wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the links below, reading these opinions took me two more hours of my time but helped me grind some thoughts! First a quick answer to your two last questions. Programs and binaries are widely recognized as copyrightable. What I am wondering is whether the action of compiling a program constitutes a contribution worthy of protection and of additional copyright. To give a concrete example, imagine I am a comp…

One other thing is the economic aspects, I just saw this on HN today: https://learning-at-home.github.io/ https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24370510

There are lots of talks about that aspect on the debian MLs as well. They argue on whether they should have machines to redo the training of models that are considered open-source, if that should be part of the "build" process.

I think it is also worth noticing that we are going that way but there are a lot of actors with a lot of processing power. Notice how, two years after one model breaks records, there are ways to make it run with 1000x less power. We are bruteforcing the problem but I am having doubts that raw power is going to matter a lot in a few years.

Also a cat detectors is pretty usable at 99%, not everybody needs 99.99%.

More than processing power, the real power in distributed training lies in the variety of situations. A thousand users may have a hard time having more computing power than Facebook's TPU farm but it will be easier for them to have a larger dataset.

Re: When is it okay for a lawyer to lie? (2018)

#146

Post by bdowling »

codesections wrote: post #144
bdowling wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> average salaries of $70-$80k USD > ruthless wageslavery at BigLaw Big law associates start at $190k, straight out of law school. Big law associates are, however, the top graduates from the top law schools. Most new law graduates don’t make that much, just like most new CS grads don’t make FAANG starting salaries.

> Big law associates start at $190k, straight out of law school. Yeah, that was the sort of BigLaw I was comparing to big tech in the grandparent.

Yeah, I just wouldn't call $190k "ruthless wageslavery at BigLaw".
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