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Accused spy Alexander Yuk Ching Ma evidently beat the polygraph

antipolygraph.org

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Re: Accused spy Alexander Yuk Ching Ma evidently beat the polygraph

#141

Post by dorkwood »

Imnimo wrote: post #111
jacquesm wrote: post #84

The polygraph is pseudoscience. Of course it can be beaten, it doesn't work to begin with. Why the US still puts so much weight on them when they know they don't work is a mystery to me. Just get rid of the damn things and do your homework better.

I think its a way to get people to admit to things. Like even knowing they don't work, it's stressful to be strapped into that chair, and even knowing the technician is probably lying when they say they're detecting deception on a particular question, it's stressful when they accuse you of lying. I bet a lot of people crack and admit to things they were hoping to hide. The trouble comes from the fact that in order fo…

I remember seeing it used as an interrogation technique on the murderer Chris Watts. The investigators basically acted all friendly and helpful at first and said this polygraph is just standard procedure. Then afterwards they left the room to "check the results", and on returning accused him of lying. He confessed during the same interview. Hard to say whether the polygraph helped at all, but it shows that it is sometimes used as an interrogation tactic.

Re: Accused spy Alexander Yuk Ching Ma evidently beat the polygraph

#142

Post by tug0fwar »

Imnimo wrote: post #111
jacquesm wrote: post #84

The polygraph is pseudoscience. Of course it can be beaten, it doesn't work to begin with. Why the US still puts so much weight on them when they know they don't work is a mystery to me. Just get rid of the damn things and do your homework better.

I think its a way to get people to admit to things. Like even knowing they don't work, it's stressful to be strapped into that chair, and even knowing the technician is probably lying when they say they're detecting deception on a particular question, it's stressful when they accuse you of lying. I bet a lot of people crack and admit to things they were hoping to hide. The trouble comes from the fact that in order fo…

Ahh... the placebo effect[1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo

Re: Accused spy Alexander Yuk Ching Ma evidently beat the polygraph

#143

Post by GuB-42 »

actuator wrote: post #17
rshnotsecure wrote: post #2

KGB did not use or believe in polygraphs. Always found that an interesting comparison to American intelligence.

Aren't there psychoactive meds which weaken control and should work better unless the person has developed resistance against that compound.

There are, the most well known being alcohol.

However, while it makes people more talkative, it doesn't make them more truthful. So it is not considered effective as an interrogation technique.

Re: Accused spy Alexander Yuk Ching Ma evidently beat the polygraph

#144

Post by pavelrub »

jacquesm wrote: post #108
unishark wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is accuracy. In terms of being able to infer lies from skin response, this is an effect that actually exists for many people. The net scientific conclusion is that can work but poorly, not that is is complete nonsense like ESP or something. Being pseudoscience or not is not quite the same question. People claim acupuncture works for them (California is now forcing insurance to pay for it), but it is clearly…

What are the chances of an actual spy being able to beat a lie detector? I'd put those at about 100%. So you will end up with nervous people who will increase the size of the haystack with zero chance of identifying the needles, which is a net negative.

> What are the chances of an actual spy being able to beat a lie detector?

I'd say not even remotely close to 100%. What is an "actual spy"? Those people are often regular employees with zero relevant training, that are simply recruited by a foreign intelligence agency via pressure, money, or manipulation, and are targeted based on their access to information. I'd say that a huge percentage of them won't be able to beat a lie detector.

Secondly, polygraph tests are used for a lot more than weeding out actual spies.

Re: Accused spy Alexander Yuk Ching Ma evidently beat the polygraph

#145

Post by hangonhn »

jacquesm wrote: post #107
AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It actually makes sense for law enforcement even knowing the device does nothing because it can be used to give them probable cause to search somewhere they wouldn't otherwise legally be able to search. When the shit hits the fan the company that sold it takes the fall, which is part of what the police were paying for. Perhaps a similar logic is at work for the military, but one would think they'd be more concerned w…

Just like those dogs that indicate the presence of drugs. Except of course when there aren't any. I've had my car searched a couple of times at the Canadian/American border because a dog gave a signal. Given the number of times I've crossed that border the false positive rate must be ridiculously high. Since you don't have much in terms of rights when crossing a border I wondered why they even bother with the pretext…

Oh wow! I've never even considered that. I wonder if the dogs pick up on subtle behavior cues from their handlers, which the handler may not even be aware of. The dog ends up giving a seemingly legit outlet for some unconscious bias.

Re: Accused spy Alexander Yuk Ching Ma evidently beat the polygraph

#146

Post by Imnimo »

gameswithgo wrote: post #137
Imnimo wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think its a way to get people to admit to things. Like even knowing they don't work, it's stressful to be strapped into that chair, and even knowing the technician is probably lying when they say they're detecting deception on a particular question, it's stressful when they accuse you of lying. I bet a lot of people crack and admit to things they were hoping to hide. The trouble comes from the fact that in order fo…

>I think its a way to get people to admit to things This is the standard way human discourse happens when talking about something for which there is no evidence of efficacy. You back up and try to rationalize some other reason for it's use, even when it makes no sense. Like in this case, using it to get people to admit things, can lead to false confessions or false convictions, especially when some of the people you…

Yeah, I bet it elicits a whole lot of false confessions. But I also suspect that intelligence agencies are perfectly happy to incorrectly reject a significant portion of applicants if they think it increases the number of malicious applicants they manage to reject. Like they only care about having high recall for detecting spies, even if they have terrible precision.

I'm not saying that makes for an actually effective system. I think it probably does more harm than good in that it leads to people thinking "well this guy passed the polygraph, so I can definitely trust him".

And of course, the calculus is totally different in criminal proceedings, where we absolutely should not be willing to make that recall-precision trade. I can at least understand why someone would think they're a helpful tool for counterintelligence screening, but any use in criminal investigations just strikes me as ludicrous.

Re: Accused spy Alexander Yuk Ching Ma evidently beat the polygraph

#147

Post by watwut »

petre wrote: post #138
pmachinery wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Citizen X is an American drama. If it depicts what you're saying (I've seen it but can't remember it) then it's just another Western dramatization depicting post-Stalin Soviet Union in cliches from the 1930s. In the real life case Citizen X is inspired by[0], nobody was tortured for a conviction, even the guilty man, who was simply put into a cell with a police informer to gather information and questioned normally b…

Post-Stalin Soviet Union clichés, of course. How do you think the wrongly arrested people confessed to the murders in the first place? "At his trial, Kravchenko retracted his confession and maintained his innocence, stating his confession had been obtained under extreme duress."

That does not make citizen-x documentary. These movies were made from imagination.

Re: Accused spy Alexander Yuk Ching Ma evidently beat the polygraph

#148

Post by mikeryan »

Imnimo wrote: post #111
jacquesm wrote: post #84

The polygraph is pseudoscience. Of course it can be beaten, it doesn't work to begin with. Why the US still puts so much weight on them when they know they don't work is a mystery to me. Just get rid of the damn things and do your homework better.

I think its a way to get people to admit to things. Like even knowing they don't work, it's stressful to be strapped into that chair, and even knowing the technician is probably lying when they say they're detecting deception on a particular question, it's stressful when they accuse you of lying. I bet a lot of people crack and admit to things they were hoping to hide. The trouble comes from the fact that in order fo…

it's stressful to be strapped into that chair, and even knowing the technician is probably lying when they say they're detecting deception on a particular question, it's stressful when they accuse you of lying

This is a bug not a feature, if everyone strapped to it are stressed out there's nothing for even a trained interrogator to read. Everyone is going to look like they're lying.

Re: Accused spy Alexander Yuk Ching Ma evidently beat the polygraph

#149

Post by XaoDaoCaoCao »

mindfulhack wrote: post #93

Polygraphs are a joke for this reason among so many others: Psychopaths, sociopaths and narcissists can fool them because they are able to feel zero (or are incapable of feeling any) biological fear or anxiety (i.e. 'stress response'), while telling complete lies.

Which is a bit horrific when you realize they act as sieves promoting the hire of such people in a higher proportion than the general population. Polygraphs are worse than useless and mere jokes; they are selectors for a kakistocracy amongst the executive levels of American governance!
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