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Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

newscientist.com

141–150 of 295 posts

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#141
post #39

This is the equivalent of saying exercise is bad because "People who engage in physical activities sometimes experience unwanted muscle soreness and joint pain". Dredging up old repressed emotions is one of the first things I learned about meditation, and you're supposed to learn to deal with them instead of keeping them buried in your head forever.

I mostly agree but I wouldn't classify repressed memories coming back up as a sore muscle, that's more like a broken bone.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#142
Early in quarantine, I basically roasted my mental health with wellness practices. Strict diet, running, yoga, breathing exercises, strict sleep schedule, no alcohol, etc. etc. I felt great and in control for a few weeks and then slowly got more and more anxious, which is compounded by the helplessness of 'doing everything right' but not getting the desired result.

Last night I played video games and ate ice cream while watching a movie. Feel pretty good today :).

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#144
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“which they describe as a profoundly nihilist state of being.” This is very important to point out and I think is actually the big trap when approaching meditative practices. I fell into this nihilism trap when I was starting meditation in college and I abandoned my practice almost completely for the next 10 or so years. It’s very easy to confuse the emptiness of self with the nonexistence of self. The latter is an e…

> It’s very easy to confuse the emptiness of self with the nonexistence of self. I think part of the issue is that the words/concepts really don't translate into modern english well at all. Another example is how frequently the first of the Four Noble Truths is misrepresented as "Life is suffering". We don't have good ways of saying or explaining shunyata or dukkha that preserve the nuance of the concepts. Edit: Thic…

Is there a longer translation that gives more nuance than "suffering"? Often times we settle for less precise words in favor of pithiness/conciseness.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#145
post #7

I've been practicing meditation for several years now. The phenomenon described in the article is very obvious to every practitioner - it can happen that for some time you will feel worse (actually I'm surprised that it's only 8%). It is related to psychological mechanisms of repression, which is weakened during meditation practices. That is why during serious meditation retreats (like 10 days vipassana) some people…

The way I like to explain meditation aimed at samatha it is that your mind is like a busy room full of conversations, and as you meditate, the conversations go quiet one by one, until there are just a few left. The ones left, the stubborn, uncooperative ones, are often the least pleasant. They are the ugly thoughts, the scary thoughts. And because you've let all your other thoughts go quiet, the unpleasant voices are now filling up the whole room. Before, you might not have been able to really hear them over the noise, but now even whispers ring out loud and clear. You can't make them shut up, and you aren't supposed to initiate new thoughts to refute them. You are only supposed to observe. In this way, a meditation session can, on a bad day, turn into sitting and listening to all your worst thoughts echo inside your head, not through any mistake, but as a natural consequence of how meditation works, especially for a beginner.

I don't know of any traditional meditation practice that claims to provide immediate benefit for a novice. It is presented as a skill that yields results through sustained development and practice, and difficulties are expected along the way. People presenting it as a quick and easy way to improve mood are the same kind of people who promote fad diets.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#146
post #26

It's important to bear in mind that meditation is a religious practice specifically aimed at causing ego-death. Yogis writing about the practice (before it became big business) freely admit all sorts of horrible-sounding mental side effects, but couch them in religious terms (and encourage the acolyte to push through until they achieve "enlightenment", which they describe as a profoundly nihilist state of being). Thi…

“which they describe as a profoundly nihilist state of being.” This is very important to point out and I think is actually the big trap when approaching meditative practices. I fell into this nihilism trap when I was starting meditation in college and I abandoned my practice almost completely for the next 10 or so years. It’s very easy to confuse the emptiness of self with the nonexistence of self. The latter is an e…

"It’s very easy to confuse the emptiness of self with the nonexistence of self."

Yeah, basically you have to realize that the fact you observe all of the normal brain noise is gone does not mean you are gone. You still observe. And most critically, you are not your brain noise, but something beyond that.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#147

Early in quarantine, I basically roasted my mental health with wellness practices. Strict diet, running, yoga, breathing exercises, strict sleep schedule, no alcohol, etc. etc. I felt great and in control for a few weeks and then slowly got more and more anxious, which is compounded by the helplessness of 'doing everything right' but not getting the desired result. Last night I played video games and ate ice cream wh…

A couple years ago I moved to the mountains with my family and cutback on mindless tech consumption (social media, Netflix) and started reading more books and working out (power rack in my garage).

I feel my IQ has gone up a few points and I’m more in control over my behavior/emotions but my anxiety is worse. I’m plagued by my thoughts of the shortness of time and the temporary relationship I’ll have with my children.

I think it’s a natural part of the human condition and people escape for a reason.

Historically, religion remedied that in a lot of ways, which is why it was called “opium of the masses”. People need a worldview-framework to overwrite their base firmware.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#148

Today on Hacker News: "Not everyone needs 8 hours of sleep: new research" and "Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety". Or more generally: "Exceptions to the rule exist". What's the value of these articles?

to provoke discussion. Read the personal stories throughout the comments here. They don't have to be objective to be valuable.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#149
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can confirm from personal experience. Even a lot of vipassana meditation by itself can send you into psychotic states when you're not ready for all the insight yet. I came very close to psychosis once, experienced ego death, broke down mentally and had to spend 2 months in a depression ward. Cannot recommend. On the other hand, I met my now-wife in the depression ward, which in the "active" phase right before my admi…

Meditation is a blade with no hilt. I _accidentally_ fell into a vipassana state of mind after the first time trying a particular religious chant, seriously, from out of the pains of boredom as a 20 year old. At the time I lived nearby mountains, and after 'coming to', I saw them through the window. I cannot describe to you the overwhelming feeling of beauty and awe that crashed over me. It was as though this was the…

I can't help but see some of the beauty you saw in the mountains in your post maybe.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#150
post #26

It's important to bear in mind that meditation is a religious practice specifically aimed at causing ego-death. Yogis writing about the practice (before it became big business) freely admit all sorts of horrible-sounding mental side effects, but couch them in religious terms (and encourage the acolyte to push through until they achieve "enlightenment", which they describe as a profoundly nihilist state of being). Thi…

Most of the anxiety/depression I've experienced revolves around the ego: expectations and pressures I place on myself, guilt/dissatisfaction when I don't feel like I'm meeting those expectations, etc. So a little bit of ego-death is just about the most peaceful thing imaginable for me. The idea that it's not all on my shoulders, that the world moves without me, that this isn't my story to ruin. I don't practice any k…

Edit: I also want to point out, for those who don't know, that the broader concept of "ego" isn't the same as the colloquial usage, which tends to just mean "narcissism". The ego is the very idea of yourself as an individual, distinct from the world, with your own interests and goals and story. Some amount of this mindset is necessary for being a functioning person. But many people, especially in western cultures, have an over-inflated ego, even if it doesn't manifest as arrogance or blatant selfishness: we all care very much about our individual success compared to others in one way or another. Even insecurity and low self-esteem and identity crises come from the ego, because they're concerned with selfhood and the state of our selfhood. I think it often does us more harm than good.
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