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"Much" of the Rust/Wasmtime team hit by layoffs at Mozilla

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Re: "Much" of the Rust/Wasmtime team hit by layoffs at Mozilla

#141

Post by chubot »

Barrin92 wrote: post #82

I always wondered how Rust at Mozilla was sustainable. Maintaining an ecosystem like that and bringing it into an already complex project like a browser is a huge undertaking that probably has eaten up significant amount of manhours. At a Microsoft sized company I'd get it because they can basically blow billions on that sort of thing but I always wondered if it actually took time away from improving Firefox or other…

Yeah I wondered about the origin too. One thing I did during quarantine was re-read some old books on my bookshelf, including 2009's Coders at Work:

https://www.amazon.com/Coders-Work-Reflections-Craft-Program...

The Brendan Eich interview was really interesting, because it talked about bridging research and software engineering, specifically with regard to memory safety in C++ and debugging tools.

I think he was talking about manual annotations on C++. It seems clear that this interest morphed into sponsoring of Rust. I think Rust was a side project since 2006 and it was "announced" around 2010 (?).

And Mozilla also sponsored the "rr" reversible Debugger, which is also some very impressive engineering. (Sadly it seems to get less attention than Rust!)

Anyway, for PL nerds, I recommend reading this interview.

----

I think this work on software engineering tools is great, but as a Firefox user of 15+ years, it would be hard for me to argue that Firefox received sufficient attention. It does feel like the situation where the engineers work on the tools for too long and then management cancels both projects (which I've seen happen in my career).

Re: "Much" of the Rust/Wasmtime team hit by layoffs at Mozilla

#142

Post by Ygg2 »

dx87 wrote: post #101

> The internet is the platform now with ubiquitous web technologies built into it, but vast new areas are developing (like Wasmtime and the Bytecode Alliance vision of nanoprocesses). Our vision and abilities should play in those areas too. Two days ago, the CEO said that focusing on technologies like Wasmtime was one of their plans for the future[1]. Now we find out that they're actually getting rid of the team. The…

Why call it corporate speak, when it's plain old lying?

Re: "Much" of the Rust/Wasmtime team hit by layoffs at Mozilla

#143

Post by [deleted] »

the_duke wrote: post #99
mvn9 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then it was a negotiation tactic. Mozilla showed that they don't desperately need the money because they are willing to cut all expenses. Thus, Google can't play the 'take whatever we offer or you will be bankrupt in 2021'-card. Firing the developers should have led to a better deal and they can now silently rehire them back.

Google doesn't need the search engine placement in Firefox. The market share is tiny. (sadly) I can imagine that Google is somewhat interested in keeping Firefox alive as an independent browser though, just to ward off monopoly issues. Yes, there are plenty of Chromium reskins, but Firefox is the only other remaining full, cross-platform browser engine.

[deleted]

Re: "Much" of the Rust/Wasmtime team hit by layoffs at Mozilla

#145

Post by lachlan-sneff »

steveklabnik wrote: post #111

Hi everyone, the Rust core team has been talking about making a statement on this, but I left this comment in a personal capacity yesterday: ------------------------ Mozilla employs a small number of people to work on Rust fulltime, and many of the Servo people contributed to Rust too, even if it wasn't their job. They also pay for the hosting bill for crates.io. They also own a trademark on Rust, Cargo, and the logo…

Thank you for commenting here Steve. The fallout from the layoffs is possibly quite harrowing but, from my biased point of view, this may be a watershed moment for Rust. It'll have to expand beyond its incubating organization.

(And don't cut yourself short, your actions are a significant part of why Rust has such a promising future.)

Re: "Much" of the Rust/Wasmtime team hit by layoffs at Mozilla

#146

Post by Jach »

iaml wrote: post #91
rvz wrote: post #15

This shows that open-source in general is expensive for Mozilla but cheap for the likes of Apple, Microsoft and Google who own their own Web browsers and have other open-source programming languages maintained by some of their employees full time. The actual reality of this is that they are still kept alive by a direct competitor for decades and haven't made anything to generate significant sources of revenue. Maybe…

I don't understand why they don't just create a patreon/github sponsors/bitcoin donations for core ff/rust/mdn teams salaries and call it a day. I'm sure they'll get more than enough contributions to make it viable.

Doubtful at standard software engineer rates living in SV[0]. I remember being kinda surprised my first visit to SF, that Mozilla had an office right on the waterfront. Seemed kind of wasteful.

They've also continuously lost lots of good will they had in the mid to late 2000s, both from end users and developers. I'm sure a lot of people would be happy to declare good riddance if chromium ever got a decent extensions framework like Firefox used to have.

They might be able to get some grants.

[0] Maybe this would be a good thing, though, get rid of all the people working on stuff (and often more expensively, managing the working on stuff) who aren't in it for the vision. The money-oriented who still want to work on browser tech can be absorbed by Google/Apple/MS/Brave/Opera. But it's risky, as they might find there's no one left.

Re: "Much" of the Rust/Wasmtime team hit by layoffs at Mozilla

#148

Post by toastal »

jtxx wrote: post #75
StevePerkins wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tried them for a little while. Unfortunately, Brave's sync service just flat-out doesn't work. To the point where they have it disabled by default, and you have to crack open advanced settings to see if it will actually work reliably for you (SPOILER ALERT: It won't). I think they were too focused on making it "blockchain-based" and "crypto-trendy", and just can't build something sensible that works. THIS is the va…

yeah I’m not a fan of brave either. wish they kept the crypto stuff separate

I think they should have done a better job explaining the purpose without saying the C-word (cryptocurrency) at it's been tainted to scam/fad/etc. The idea of BAT is really nice in theory, but it got pulled into the crypto scene and specualtion a bit too hard and should have been more of an implementation detail.

Re: "Much" of the Rust/Wasmtime team hit by layoffs at Mozilla

#149

Post by AsyncAwait »

_jal wrote: post #121
iaml wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why they don't just create a patreon/github sponsors/bitcoin donations for core ff/rust/mdn teams salaries and call it a day. I'm sure they'll get more than enough contributions to make it viable.

> I'm sure they'll get more than enough How sure are you? Would you be sure enough to bet your child's health care on it?

As an aside, the fact that in the U.S. your healthcare is tied to your employer is absolutely nuts.

Re: "Much" of the Rust/Wasmtime team hit by layoffs at Mozilla

#150

Post by amenod »

gamblor956 wrote: post #109
Recursing wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple, Microsoft, and Google: * Forbid alternative browser engines on their platform. * Bundle their browser in a leading operating system. * Use their massive Web properties to drive downloads of their own browser.

Microsoft and Google allow alternative browser engines. Apple does not.

They both fight with every dirty dark UX pattern they can get away with. Not much difference in practice.

If anything, at the moment Apple is doing more for the web diversity than anyone else. They have a non-negligeable market share and can force Google to abandon at least the most outrageous plans for Chrome.

Not that they are angels, of course... It's a pity that Mozilla failed to find a better revenue source that would include keeping Firefox alive.

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