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Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

newstatesman.com

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Re: Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

#141

Post by deadbunny »

zozbot234 wrote: post #76
tehjoker wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If workers controlled the workplace, this is precisely what would happen. It's only because the people doing the work don't control the work that this seems fanciful.

"Worker-controlled workplaces" are rather common in some industries where capital intensity is especially low, such as legal services (with firms being organized as partnerships; indeed, capital intensity is the main obstacle to this kind of structure in other industries). And yet, top lawyers tend to work quite a bit more than the typical worker.

> And yet, top lawyers tend to work quite a bit more than the typical worker.

I would argue that the reason for that is that they more directly see the fruits of their labour.

Re: Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

#142

Post by marc_abonce »

grecy wrote: post #65
Barrin92 wrote: post #10

>we also need to challenge the cultural ethic that teaches us to value ourselves in proportion to our capacity for “economically productive” labour. Human beings are more than just workers. We need to learn how to value idleness. I think much more than valueing idleness it's also a massive indictement of the system we live in. The number of people who I've talked to who legitimately don't know what to do without work…

The day I drove into Mexico it was a huge shock to see so many people around just enjoying their time - paying with their younger relatives on the beach, playing guitar, singing and dancing. My fascination and disbelief at the amount of leisure time everyone has continued for two years through all of Latin America, and then for another three years when I drove right around Africa. Having come from years grinding at a…

Where did you go? Because the average Mexican works more hours than every other OCDE country[1].

[1] https://data.oecd.org/emp/hours-worked.htm

Re: Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

#143

Post by chii »

caymanjim wrote: post #115

I'm a huge fan of sloth. I frequently take many months off between jobs, sometimes a year or more. I refuse to work more than 40 hours a week except for genuine emergencies (things like outages; being behind schedule never counts), and I'm close to drawing the line at four days a week. I always take at least three weeks off a year, and that's in a bad year. I take "mental health days" often and with no guilt. If you…

> it's not that hard to achieve ... from minimum wage jobs through decades of professional career.

i highly doubt somebody on a minimum wage job can choose to work only 4 days a week.

Re: Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

#144

Post by tomdell »

chii wrote: post #143
caymanjim wrote: post #115

I'm a huge fan of sloth. I frequently take many months off between jobs, sometimes a year or more. I refuse to work more than 40 hours a week except for genuine emergencies (things like outages; being behind schedule never counts), and I'm close to drawing the line at four days a week. I always take at least three weeks off a year, and that's in a bad year. I take "mental health days" often and with no guilt. If you…

> it's not that hard to achieve ... from minimum wage jobs through decades of professional career. i highly doubt somebody on a minimum wage job can choose to work only 4 days a week.

If it was sufficiently long ago, which it sounds like it was, they could. Minimum wage would be significantly higher now if it had kept pace with inflation and cost of living increases over the last few decades.

Re: Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

#145

Post by reddog »

chii wrote: post #143
caymanjim wrote: post #115

I'm a huge fan of sloth. I frequently take many months off between jobs, sometimes a year or more. I refuse to work more than 40 hours a week except for genuine emergencies (things like outages; being behind schedule never counts), and I'm close to drawing the line at four days a week. I always take at least three weeks off a year, and that's in a bad year. I take "mental health days" often and with no guilt. If you…

> it's not that hard to achieve ... from minimum wage jobs through decades of professional career. i highly doubt somebody on a minimum wage job can choose to work only 4 days a week.

There is a leisure class at both ends of the economic spectrum.

Re: Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

#146

Post by aww_dang »

>"Recalling the famous example of the pin factory that Adam Smith used to explain the division of labour, Russell imagined a new technology that will halve the amount of time it takes to make a pin. If the market for pins is already saturated, what will happen?

In a sane world, Russell thought, the factory would simply halve working hours, maintaining the same wages but greatly increasing the time that the workers could devote to the joys of leisure. But, as Russell observed, this rarely happens. Instead, the factory owner will opt to keep half the workers on the same hours and lay off the rest."

The cost for a single pin will be reduced and the labor required to consume a single pin will also be reduced. Money saved is an opportunity for leisure.

Re: Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

#147

Post by andreilys »

zemvpferreira wrote: post #118
icelancer wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I work two jobs plus consulting, so it's like 30-35 hrs/job if that works! I agree RE: consumerism. I save / invest most of my money and spend it on services like you (though I cook most of my meals since it's a hobby of mine; but same idea with a nanny, housekeeper, etc). I wear mostly free clothing from vendors and my suits (such that I need them) are all from Indochino; I drive a 12 year old used SUV around a…

It sounds like your priorities are on track. There are far worse things to do in life than to accumulate generational wealth and save your kids from the drudgery of meaningless jobs. How much money do you think you’ll need to be comfortable? That said I still have a problem with the idea that working 70 hours out of every week is good - even if you feel energized, certainly you can’t be operating near your peak. Take…

Ronaldo most certainly "works" more than 25h a week.

I think it's very difficult to become world class working However the world would be a much sadder place without the obsessive-compulsives that spend an inordinate amount of time on their craft.

Re: Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

#148

Post by mrec »

reddog wrote: post #145
chii wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's not that hard to achieve ... from minimum wage jobs through decades of professional career. i highly doubt somebody on a minimum wage job can choose to work only 4 days a week.

There is a leisure class at both ends of the economic spectrum.

That's an interesting observation, although it does depend on the benefits landscape where you live.

Re: Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

#149

Post by kiliantics »

throwaway45349 wrote: post #107
rainonmoon wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While this is a familiar Peterson talking point, society has in many ways sublimated our nature for the broader collective good. Addressing the problems of capitalism would be another step in that progress.

Nah, I disagree. Capitalism is the most natural system because it accepts what we are - selfish beings in a competitive environment. If we didn't specialize and trade skills/products/services, we'd still be a hunter-gatherer species. The system is what kept us going, not what holds us back. It only looks like oppression in 2020 because of how easy the rest of life is.

There are a lot of good arguments and suggestive evidence that the exact opposite is true: that we were competitive in our environment not because we were selfish, but because we were social, altruistic, caring, supportive.

Re: Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

#150

Post by kiliantics »

perfunctory wrote: post #41

Another important reason that "idleness is more relevant than ever" is climate crisis https://cepr.net/documents/publications/climate-change-works...

Exactly this. I thought this must be the reason suggested by the headline and was really sad to see barely any reference to it even in the comments...
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