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ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

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Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#141

Post by tokamak-teapot »

My wrists ache badly if I type too much, despite all the adjustments I’ve made over the years.

I’m currently using an Apple wired keyboard angled so the front edge is higher, with my hands floating above it or sitting on silicon rests.

I also use Filco tenkeyless mechanical keyboards - one with blue and one with brown switches. I prefer the feel of these and make fewer mistakes, but I’m convinced they make my wrists worse.

I think the next options for me to try are split, tenting and staggered columns.

Is there a chance of trying these out without spending this kind of money? I don’t think I’m up to the task of soldering switches, unfortunately.

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#142

Post by erikerikson »

tom_ wrote: post #76

I wish people would just copy the MS Natural Ergonomic 4000, but with better keyswitches. As things stand, every split keyboard with nice keyswitches has a different layout from every other, which is odd, considering how much this type of device relies on muscle memory to work. (Also, most of them miss one or more of F keys, symmetrical meta keys, standard navigation cluster layout, volume buttons - it's like they wa…

I'm a recent'ish convert from the MS Natural Ergonomic after decades. I'm glad I switched.

Ortholinear layout really is better but as the marketing says, it takes a bit and is a journey.

I have missed the clustered nav keys but have also really enjoyed having them closer to standard hand placement.

The 'layering' approach makes the function keys as simple as ctrl-×.

FWIW, I'm a happy customer and you may need to read this comment accordingly. I'd suggest it might be worth trying it out. I still have my MS keyboard but never want to use it.

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#143

Post by alxlu »

phaus wrote: post #132
codemac wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who uses an advantage kinesis & dvorak, laptops & dvorak, and other people's computers & qwerty: You get used to switching back and forth in ~2 weeks. If you spend all your day typing, definitely spend the $ and the time to learn to type on an ergonomic keyboard with good quality switches. I think the kinesis or maltron have the best research on their ergonomics & build quality. I highly recommend them.

The Kinesis is based on sound research. The Maltrons have a lot of keys positioned in ways that add nothing to ergonomics. Maltron also makes the claim that you can type 80 wpm with their 1 handed keyboard but there seems to be no publicly available evidence of anyone getting anywhere near that fast. I agree its pretty easy to switch back and forth between different split keyboards and to traditional keyboards. I use…

I tried to use one for months before giving up because I felt it was too big. I mostly enjoyed typing in the key wells, but I ended up getting thumb pain because of how much I had to stretch my hand in order to reach the enter/backspace/modifier keys.

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#144

Post by fluffything »

steveklabnik wrote: post #45
fluffything wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think OP meant "Why does this keyboard need so much computing power". Most keyboards you can program use an AVR chip, which is more than enough, and you can also program that from Rust. The jump from that to this ARMv5 CPU is similar to that from this ARMv5 to an Intel Xeon. And sure enough, if someone were to build a keyboard with an Intel Xeon, you could also program that from Rust. But the question still remains…

So, this is 100% speculation, but.... Specifically, this has a STM32F303xC. Looks like (depending on quantity, of course), you're looking at $3 to $5. Their other well-known keyboard, the Ergodox EZ, uses an ATMEGA32U4-AU. It's also $3 or $4 on Mouser. I don't know what the actual BOM looks like in total, but it seems like this isn't significantly different in price? Especially at the likely volumes here? I'm still n…

Thanks, this is an interesting discussion. I thought the arms would be much more expensive: https://www.reddit.com/r/olkb/comments/6wt6mi/evaluating_mcu...

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#145

Post by evan_ »

tokamak-teapot wrote: post #141

My wrists ache badly if I type too much, despite all the adjustments I’ve made over the years. I’m currently using an Apple wired keyboard angled so the front edge is higher, with my hands floating above it or sitting on silicon rests. I also use Filco tenkeyless mechanical keyboards - one with blue and one with brown switches. I prefer the feel of these and make fewer mistakes, but I’m convinced they make my wrists…

if you want to demo a split keyboard you could plug two keyboards in and put one hand on each

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#146

Post by Theodores »

wy35 wrote: post #68
Theodores wrote: post #28

I appreciate that there is a market for ergonomic fancy keyboards, but can't we just get the standard keyboard right? I wish that there was a keyboard company out there that focused on standard keyboards with attention paid to supporting all locales. Choice for the US consumer might be great but elsewhere in the English speaking world you start getting compromises. Essentially you can get a US keyboard with a few of…

> Why can't there just be a manufacturer that goes for the niche of standard ISO rather than ergonomic, or with too few keys, or with some emphasis on buckling spring style feel? Those features are what the mass consumer market wants. Also, I'm sure Logitech and Microsoft have always offered a standard ISO keyboard. > Ergonomic People value the long-term health of their wrists. > Too few keys Usually to reduce desk s…

The ISO layouts for the UK have a two-row enter key.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_and_American_keyboards

US keyboards don't. There is a backslash key above the single row enter key. Which is a key I have no real great use for. Maybe it rocked in the MS-DOS days but backslash doesn't really need that priority place.

So look at the Logitech keyboards for the UK. They offer one model with the true layout, i.e. a double height enter key. The rest have some US keys with UK labels on.

Now look at Microsoft. Again there is some massive backslash key instead of an ISO UK keyboard in all its glory.

What happens is that they take the US board and change a few of the key caps. They do not go to the effort of doing it properly.

There are other layouts, for example, German, that should have the big enter key.

Standards might not be optimal solutions. But at least you know where you are. You know what to expect. But with keyboards nobody sticks to the standards. If you look at the Logitech ones for instance they all have different fudges, such as arrow keys mangled together differently, just enough to trip you up if swapping between Logitech keyboards. Then things like rounding off the corner keys including escape. They do these awful design decisions on far too many of their keyboards.

The tenkeyless requirement is reasonable, laptops don't tend to have the num-pad. But is there a tkl keyboard out there with a standard ISO layout? Not if you combine that feature with wireless or a desire for backlighting. Nevermind switch choice.

Some people struggle with an Apple keypad due to the different modifier keys. God help anyone having to press a few keys on any of the ZSA boards. Might as well learn Dvorak keyboards. Or go all the way with a chord keyboard. QWERTY works and we all know it is not the best. But standards are not kept to when you move out of the US layout.

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#147

Post by erikerikson »

ohazi wrote: post #127

The columnar layout thesis ("your fingers move vertically, not horizontally!") is wrong. Your fingers can move both vertically and horizontally, but moving them vertically requires tensioning and releasing the tendons that travel through the carpal tunnel, while moving them from side to side does not. It's the exact opposite of what you want to be doing if you have wrist RSI. I got partway through an Ergodox build be…

> It's the exact opposite of what you want to be doing if you have wrist RSI.

Do you have a reference for this? I don't have it but use ergonomic tools to avoid such in the long term.

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#148

Post by LargoLasskhyfv »

sawaruna wrote: post #112

Split keyboards are really popular amongst the Japanese mechanical keyboard scene for some reason. Tons of people making and selling DIY split / ortholinear split kits.

I think this has historical roots in the japanese [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRON_project from the eighties which also had something like these [2] http://xahlee.info/kbd/TRON_keyboard.html

And from Sci-Fi Anime from the time, and afterwards.

This was their [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_generation_computer project, and those keyboards belonged to it. So that concept has been in the air from then on, at least.

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#149

Post by frank2 »

ohazi wrote: post #127

The columnar layout thesis ("your fingers move vertically, not horizontally!") is wrong. Your fingers can move both vertically and horizontally, but moving them vertically requires tensioning and releasing the tendons that travel through the carpal tunnel, while moving them from side to side does not. It's the exact opposite of what you want to be doing if you have wrist RSI. I got partway through an Ergodox build be…

I don't understand what you are saying. It seems to me that the finger tips have to move both horizontally and vertically regardless of the layout.

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#150

Post by GordonS »

mohaine wrote: post #133
thefounder wrote: post #32

Already had somwthing like this. The wires made it useless for me.

I never understood the appeal of wireless keyboards. Sure I understand for mobile but for a primary workspace the wire has never bothered me on the keyboard. I mean it just sits there and replacing batteries is a pain. Mouse is a different story since it moves. Is it just mobile or is there some other reason you hate wires on a keyboard?

2 reasons why wired keyboards are annoying:

  1. Aesthetics; the wire looks ugly on an otherwise clean desk
  2. The wire takes up space that could be used for a notebook, coffee cup, mobile phone or whatever
I've had wireless keyboards at home and wired at work for years - wireless is much better IMO. On the batteries, they seem to last a very long time - I guess I change them once a year, or possibly 18 months, and that's with me using it all day, and then someone else often using it for a bit in the evening too.
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