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Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

timjrobinson.com

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Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#141

Post by jjoonathan »

zhoujianfu wrote: post #113
jay_kyburz wrote: post #79

I understand and agree with how a UBI will benefit those that are currently falling between the cracks and not receiving any assistance. I can also see the benefits of greatly simplifying the social security system. (If it was implemented in a way that was actually simple. i.e. no distinction between sick, unemployed, old, lazy) But I don't understand why people don't believe the UBI will just become the new definiti…

People will always compare themselves to their peers, it’s true. But there’s a pretty big objective difference between the poorest person having $0 and the poorest person having, say, $20,000 a year.

Also, getting rid of gigantic perverse incentives induced by welfare thresholds helps people find their way back into the working world. UBI isn't about making poverty more desirable, it's about making poverty less sticky.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#142

Post by bob33212 »

lifeformed wrote: post #112
bluedevil2k wrote: post #12

I can’t help but think that UBI would distort job markets. Let’s pick an example of a “sucky job” (and I say this as just an example, I realize these guys work hard and are vital). A garbage man. He get’s paid $42k a year because they have to find people who would be willing to do this sucky job and need to pay higher than minimum wage to do so. At some point of income, people would be willing to accept the suckiness…

Then the garbage job would start paying $66k a year.

The problem is that we don't know how many people have no interest in working at all at any salary. Some people would choose to not work than to get paid 62k a year at a job they hate. People who oppose UBI are afraid that no one will fill jobs that they think are essential.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#143

Post by staycoolboy »

phillpot wrote: post #20

GDP is a bad metric. The planet does not have unlimited resources to fuel unlimited growth.

But GDP isn't a natural resource, it is an artificial number extracted from insanely complex valuation of fiat currency, debt, policy, and subjective worth, all of which are subject to geopolitics and whims.

I completely agree that nature eventually puts an end to exponential growth, but I don't see how it puts an end to exponential wealth.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#144

Post by morpheuskafka »

bluedevil2k wrote: post #12

I can’t help but think that UBI would distort job markets. Let’s pick an example of a “sucky job” (and I say this as just an example, I realize these guys work hard and are vital). A garbage man. He get’s paid $42k a year because they have to find people who would be willing to do this sucky job and need to pay higher than minimum wage to do so. At some point of income, people would be willing to accept the suckiness…

Or they have to improve the working conditions on those jobs. Garbage workers have been treated poorly for a long time, and so have meat-packing workers, and Amazon fulfillment workers, and other "sucky jobs." If those workers have access to UBI they will have significantly more bargaining power in the workplace and would be less beholden to their employers for daily lives.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#145

Post by jameslevy »

thephyber wrote: post #120
alexmingoia wrote: post #82

Why give free money to everyone? Clearly a rich person doesn’t need a monthly check from government... Milton Friedman long ago proposed a negative income tax to replace means-tested welfare programs. Essentially, people below a certain income threshold would receive money which scales to a maximum the closer their income approaches zero. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_income_tax I do think people radically…

The most likely implementation in the existing US federal government is a negative income tax. > I definitely would choose not to work or work less if that money came free from government. You aren't alone, so your $1200 would not go as far in that future as it does now. There would be some inflation (perhaps only localized increased costs to some industries), but I'd suspect that people working less would be a featu…

As us engineers like to say, the goal is to automate ourselves out of a job.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#146

Post by jMyles »

alexmingoia wrote: post #82

Why give free money to everyone? Clearly a rich person doesn’t need a monthly check from government... Milton Friedman long ago proposed a negative income tax to replace means-tested welfare programs. Essentially, people below a certain income threshold would receive money which scales to a maximum the closer their income approaches zero. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_income_tax I do think people radically…

What is so bad about reduced "work"? Maybe people who are currently working at stupid, unnecessary jobs will make art and poetry and music. Or maybe invent cool things. Or maybe just relax and learn about themselves.

I have never understood this obsession with 100% employment.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#147

Post by TimTheTinker »

drummer wrote: post #62

UBI is extremely dangerous as long as governments exist. Take what China is doing with their citizen score and it's not hard to imagine what could go wrong. "...imagine how easy it would be for such a government that was also providing a basic income to its citizens to manipulate their citizens based on that basic income that they depended on. If they can deny citizens access to things like public transportation base…

You’re right that a UBI effectively vastly increases the power a government could wield over its citizens.

One of the most important sets of principles the US founders relied on were the facts that power corrupts, that it (unfortunately) has to be wielded by someone in a governing sense, and that the best ways to keep government from becoming corrupt and abusive are to (a) limit its power to that which is essential for rule-of-law, representative government; and (b) divide that power among different people who have checks and balances on each others’ power.

Therefore it seems to me that a UBI is likely not a good idea because it vastly increases government’s power.

Note that the US government already wields a ton of power not explicitly granted by the constitution in the form of federal grants...

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#148

Post by hcurtiss »

alex_young wrote: post #114

A UBI paid for with a carbon tax would both save us from the worst consequences of global warming and stimulate the economy. It's hard to find a rational excuse for not doing it. Planet Money did a great episode on this idea over 7 years ago: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2013/07/12/201502003/epis... They did a followup 5 years later: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/07/18/630267782/epis... It seems like…

I haven't listened to those lately, but I don't recall them calling for a UBI. Didn't they redistribute it back to the carbon taxpayers?

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#149

Post by mulmen »

alex_young wrote: post #114

A UBI paid for with a carbon tax would both save us from the worst consequences of global warming and stimulate the economy. It's hard to find a rational excuse for not doing it. Planet Money did a great episode on this idea over 7 years ago: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2013/07/12/201502003/epis... They did a followup 5 years later: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/07/18/630267782/epis... It seems like…

What happens if it works? Surely UBI funding should not be linked to a crisis?

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#150

Post by [deleted] »

alexmingoia wrote: post #82

Why give free money to everyone? Clearly a rich person doesn’t need a monthly check from government... Milton Friedman long ago proposed a negative income tax to replace means-tested welfare programs. Essentially, people below a certain income threshold would receive money which scales to a maximum the closer their income approaches zero. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_income_tax I do think people radically…

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