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There is now a European standard for measuring how easy it is to repair stuff

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Re: There is now a European standard for measuring how easy it is to repair stuff

#141

Post by ThePhysicist »

Shivetya wrote: post #121
ThePhysicist wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple seems to be one of the worst offenders in terms of repairability of their devices. You can watch e.g. Louis Rossmann's videos on Youtube, he goes into great detail on how Apple tries to make it impossible for anyone except themselves to service their laptops, even going as far as to restrict market suppliers from selling specific microchips (that were not invented by Apple) to anyone but Apple. I imagine this w…

Right to repair never covered upgrading an item. We cannot upgrade memory or storage in many devices so limiting the rule to say "this item type must allow for use upgrading" limits the flexibility of the seller. If you don't like their limits then buy the other brand. One could make a good argument that circuit board repair is outside the realm of right to repair as in many applications you simply buy a new module o…

I don't think so. Letting the manufacturer decide which parts of a system "belong together" will not enable an effective repair, as companies like Apple will just say that their whole logic board is a single unit and to "repair" it you need to throw it out and get a new one (actually that's exactly what they are doing already by restricting repair shops from buying specific chips they use on their boards; many board problems would be easy to repair with the right 30 cent IC, Apple just won't let repair technicians have those). That's a bit too convenient maybe. A better approach would be to see what is practically possible in terms of repairability without significantly compromising other aspects of a design, and mandate this to everyone. Another way would be to create fore-runner programs, where the most innovative and efficient solution becomes the standard for everyone to follow. This worked well for products like cars so I don't see why this wouldn't work for computers.

Also, saying "if you don't like their limits then buy the other brand" is not a strong argument against standardization and regulation of technology, that stance would basically give a free pass to manufacturers to do anything as long as there is customer demand for it. Any industry that can produce significant external negative effects like waste or pollution, which are not primarily experienced by the consumers (think of pollution produced by cars; not very inconvenient to each individual consumer, but harmful to people in cities due to the large number of cars), needs to be regulated based on environmental and sustainability factors as well.

Re: There is now a European standard for measuring how easy it is to repair stuff

#142

Post by dieortin »

fsflover wrote: post #87
asutekku wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When apple device stops being supported, it’s just not getting any more updates. It’s not going to get bricked, you can keep using the phone until foreseeable future. Also, the general consumer does not care if you can flash a rom from xda. They care about the official updates.

> When apple device stops being supported, it’s just not getting any more updates If effectively means it is absolutely unsafe to use anymore. Security bugs are found in browsers all the time. >Also, the general consumer does not care if you can flash a rom from xda. They care about the official updates. At least there is an option. Also this is exactly why I mentioned F-Droid, which is just an app.

iPhones still get many years of security updates after they stop supporting the last iOS version.

Re: There is now a European standard for measuring how easy it is to repair stuff

#143

Post by rsynnott »

C1sc0cat wrote: post #103
rsynnott wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I kind liked washing machines that properly heated to 90C Your washing machine is likely defective. Nothing about the rules makes this particularly difficult and modern machines with good energy ratings can do it (though, mind you, you'll notice if you read the small print that the energy rating is pretty much just for the mode they expect people to use; the 90 degree mode will use quite a lot of power). > vacuum c…

What was ignored that having a 1600w vs 1000w means you can run the 1600w at a lower load for the same suckage which extends the product life.

I'm not sure that that's true in a vacuum, and in any case most of the super-high-wattage vacuum cleaners didn't have controls for that (maybe very high-end ones did?)

EDIT: Just noticed the accidental pun; by true in a vacuum I mean true without extra information, not true in a vacuum cleaner :)

Re: There is now a European standard for measuring how easy it is to repair stuff

#144

Post by dieortin »

bzb3 wrote: post #68

As long as having a certain score is not mandatory... I like my iPhones, and I couldn't care less about their repairability. If they stop working and I'm out of warranty I just buy a new one.

iPhones’ repairability is fine, but your attitude of not caring about the environment at all isn’t.

Re: There is now a European standard for measuring how easy it is to repair stuff

#145

Post by Fnoord »

_ph_ wrote: post #104
Fnoord wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A time traveller [sic] could buy a current Rolex [...] Well, no. A wealthy time traveler could buy a current Rolex. Rolex is a terrible example. I'd love to learn about high quality, affordable brands. Also, only being able to know the time is very little information nowadays; smartwatches can do so much more (I have a Fossil Hybrid HR).

A non-gold Rolex can be bought for less than a top of the line Macbook Pro :p. I just wanted to give the example of a very fancy and expensive brand, which doesn't have to hide behind glueing their product together. The same applies to any quality brand mechanical wristwatch, be it Seiko, Tissot, Omega, IWC just to name some.

> The same applies to any quality brand mechanical wristwatch, be it Seiko, Tissot, Omega, IWC just to name some.

Thanks for mentioning these. Seiko is a brand I know, and if that fits the requirement then that's telling to me. My parents both had Seiko watches (different ones; mom had a smaller one, dad a bigger one), for a long time. At one point though, my mother replaced hers as it would've been too expensive to repair. For me, that watch was part of her identity, as I grew up with it.

My father was (virtually) blind, and he also wore an other watch which he could push to hear the time. That was also an expensive watch back in the days (end 80s / begin 90s), and did require a battery. It also said the time only in English, including PM/AM (we use 24 hours here, so I learned pretty quickly what PM/AM meant). Sadly, he missed the smart device era, though he did receive spoken books from the library for the blind, as well as the Dutch equiv of Consumer Reports (Consumentenbond). I grew up listening to these. And these watches I mentioned.

Re: There is now a European standard for measuring how easy it is to repair stuff

#146

Post by Spivak »

cheesecracker wrote: post #115
_ph_ wrote: post #24

Whenever repairability of modern electronic devices is discussed, I have to look at my mechanical wristwatch. Yes, there is an enormeous amount of technology integrated into a smartphone or compact laptop, but my wristwatch contains over 100 moving parts in a tiny volume. And still, every trained watchmaker can open and service it. It requires specialized tools, but those have been avialable to watchmakers for hundre…

Sorry, but isn't a wristwatch like a bazillionth of complexity of a modern smartphone? How many transistors do you need for a wristwatch? The whole idea of servicing modern electronics is romantic nonsense. The hourly rate of an expert will make it too expensive quickly, because industrialized mass production is too effective. (Edit: according to this link on Quora, several billion transistors are not unrealistic in…

But a watchmaker is also unlikely equally unlikely to have the skills and equipment to fabricate the individual pieces of a watch. We are asking what the repairability is like when all the pieces of the phone (that would be available in the factory at final assembly) are available to the servicer.

Re: There is now a European standard for measuring how easy it is to repair stuff

#147

Post by Frost1x »

ginko wrote: post #134
_ph_ wrote: post #24

Whenever repairability of modern electronic devices is discussed, I have to look at my mechanical wristwatch. Yes, there is an enormeous amount of technology integrated into a smartphone or compact laptop, but my wristwatch contains over 100 moving parts in a tiny volume. And still, every trained watchmaker can open and service it. It requires specialized tools, but those have been avialable to watchmakers for hundre…

>A time traveller could buy a current Rolex and have it serviced in 1950, possibly even in 1850. That's because mechanical watches are an outdated design. Good luck to them trying to service a quartz watch.

It depends on the component you need to service. For a battery it's usually quite easy, but that really depends.

OPs point is that in many cases, products are being intentionally designed to be difficult to service. It's one thing to introduce a complex component that's not reasonably serviceable and make it modular to replace, it's an entirely different story when you make that modular piece difficult to replace when it doesn't need to be.

This is what a lot of product vendors are doing, intentionally designing products to force vendor servicing. It's not a new trick, some auto manufacturers used to and still do it for certain cases.

Due to the complexity of the situation, there's usually ambiguity that the product needed to be designed that way to meet some specification/constraint. What usually happens is that a specification/feature/constraint that forces such designs is often sought after or identified, then the design follows suit.

These are the types of shenanigans you have accountants and financing involved in the design process of anything. They want to maximize ROI and know engineers are good at optimization problems, so ultimately, we end up with products designed to be more business friendly and less consumer friendly. I know for a fact it happens because I've been in this scenario countless times during product or service development, then someone chimes in, "is there a way we can... so we can get more money."

Re: There is now a European standard for measuring how easy it is to repair stuff

#148

Post by zubspace »

I had a Fairphone 1 once. It fell on the floor and the display cracked. I was able to order a replacement screen and replace the cracked screen in about 2 hours thanks to iFixit [1]. And I have no idea of electronics whatsoever!

This is remarkable but unfortunately not sustainable. The manufacturer needs to enable repairs, provide howto's and he needs to guarantee, that you can buy those replacement parts.

At some point after Fairphone 2 was released, which was priced a lot higher, I was unable to download newer android versions even though that was promised. It was just too complex for them provide an update.

That's the sad truth: Support for old hardware diverts manpower from more lucrative things in the business: Creating and selling new phones.

[1] https://www.ifixit.com/Device/Fairphone_1

Re: There is now a European standard for measuring how easy it is to repair stuff

#149

Post by BunsanSpace »

switch007 wrote: post #15
apexalpha wrote: post #10

Let's hope this catches on just like the energy labels did. After the EU forced manufacturers to improve energy use in their devices it soon improved situations for everyone on this planet. Many other countries follow EU regulations directly or indirectly so let's hope for some easily repairable products in the future!

> After the EU forced manufacturers to improve energy use in their devices it soon improved situations for everyone on this planet. I don't know (talking as fairly pro-EU kind of person). I kind liked washing machines that properly heated to 90C and vacuum cleaners that actually picked up dirt. But the EU are only partly to blame. Companies are relentless in their pursuit of cutting production costs. Going "green" ju…

some companies could choose to make their product shittier, others could choose to pick a more expensive/efficient power supply and improve device design.

Have you ever heard of delta electronics? They manufacture 90% of power supplies on the planet and their CEO is a huge environmentalist. They have a philosophy of improving efficient for the hell of it, because a 1% improvement in their efficiency = thousands of megawatts saved due to their sheer volume.

Re: There is now a European standard for measuring how easy it is to repair stuff

#150

Post by mahesh_rm »

tuukkah wrote: post #56
mahesh_rm wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The paradox is "A standard aimed at preventing replacement will be used to catalyze replacements". Standards never enforce replacements. Regulations and Fashions enforce replacements on the basis of standards.

Can you give an example of what such a regulation could look like and of standards as a significant driver of fashion?

"Reduced" property taxes on low environmental impact residential units. Which in fact turns into increased property taxes on "environmentally inefficient" residential units. Which turns into higher fiscal pressure for people that cannot afford to refurbish their homes. Which turns into them selling their properties (sometimes built by their great grandfathers) to rich turists that are able to afford the required refurbishments.
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