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Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

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Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#141

Post by dclowd9901 »

dawg- wrote: post #59

Their first demand is that the Seattle Police Department be abolished, as in 100% defunded, as in completely deleted. Coming out with a demand like that is just asking to lose right off the bat. I wish they would delete it and stick with their second demand - take all weapons away from police. No guns, no batons, no tasers. It's also crazy, but at least it's crazy in a "this might just be crazy enough to work" kind o…

Abolish police is a first step. The idea is to create an alternative way to keep public order, and not _start_ from the police as a concept.

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#142

Post by DenisM »

free_rms wrote: post #112
0x262d wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A handful of incidents like these are being distorted and blown up by media that treats cop lies uncritically. In comparison, just a few nights ago, cops were beating people and filling the area with tear gas (banned under geneva convention) and it was seeping into residential homes so badly that even nextdoor is anti-police in that area now.

More relevantly, they were specifically ordered by their city council not to use tear gas and then went ahead and did it anyways, all over the city. I'd like to think, regardless of anyone's politics, we could all agree that the elected government should have authority over the police.

Can you clarify the timeline? AFAIK the police used tear-gas, then they were ordered to stop by the mayor, then they stopped and switched to other means like mace. Do you know differently?

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#143

Post by solidasparagus »

woodruffw wrote: post #140
solidasparagus wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a music festival campground Which is fun for a while until people start dying or fighting like they always do and suddenly you need a group of people who spend their time dealing with it. Anarchic utopias do not stay utopic for all that long.

> Anarchic utopias do not stay utopic for all that long. At least one counterexample to this is Exarcheia[1] in Athens, which has been relatively unpoliced for the last 50 years. I was there about a year ago and was struck by how both peaceful and lively it was. Nowhere in Athens felt nearly as alive. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exarcheia

> relatively unpoliced for the last 50 years

Source on that? 75% of that link talks about:

- riots following police action

- attacks on police stations

- special policing tactics for that region

- evictions by the police

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#144

Post by 0x262d »

DenisM wrote: post #142
free_rms wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More relevantly, they were specifically ordered by their city council not to use tear gas and then went ahead and did it anyways, all over the city. I'd like to think, regardless of anyone's politics, we could all agree that the elected government should have authority over the police.

Can you clarify the timeline? AFAIK the police used tear-gas, then they were ordered to stop by the mayor, then they stopped and switched to other means like mace. Do you know differently?

that's correct, although the mayor (who has been very supportive of them forever, incidentally had Amazon campaign donation $350k) built various loopholes into the initial ban (namely, that the police chief could allow them to start re-using it). so, yeah, not much of a ban in the first place by the mayor.

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#145

Post by woodruffw »

solidasparagus wrote: post #143
woodruffw wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Anarchic utopias do not stay utopic for all that long. At least one counterexample to this is Exarcheia[1] in Athens, which has been relatively unpoliced for the last 50 years. I was there about a year ago and was struck by how both peaceful and lively it was. Nowhere in Athens felt nearly as alive. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exarcheia

> relatively unpoliced for the last 50 years Source on that? 75% of that link talks about: - riots following police action - attacks on police stations - special policing tactics for that region - evictions by the police

My source is first-hand experience: the police do not enter Exarcheia, because they know that they'll be attacked if they do.

The Wikipedia page documents precisely what has happened each time the police have tried to establish a foothold in the neighborhood since the 1973 student uprising. They currently operate from patrols and bases outside of the neighborhood. Any effects they have on the neighborhood (like squat clearing) tend to be impermanent.

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#146

Post by DudeInBasement »

rabidrat wrote: post #127
kixiQu wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live there. This is correct in that the CHAZ itself has its biggest impacts through a. having free snacks and b. not allowing through traffic, but it really hasn't been stated enough how awful it had been when the police were there. Helicopters all night and if you were unlucky to be close enough: https://www.thestranger.com/slog/2020/06/04/43840246/seattle...

This is correct. I live 3 blocks from CHAZ and I was gassed in my apartment 3 nights last week. I feel much safer without the police around right now.

I'd feel much safer without the looters/rioters around

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#147

Post by remarkEon »

dragonwriter wrote: post #111
dawg- wrote: post #59

Their first demand is that the Seattle Police Department be abolished, as in 100% defunded, as in completely deleted. Coming out with a demand like that is just asking to lose right off the bat. I wish they would delete it and stick with their second demand - take all weapons away from police. No guns, no batons, no tasers. It's also crazy, but at least it's crazy in a "this might just be crazy enough to work" kind o…

> Their first demand is that the Seattle Police Department be abolished, as in 100% defunded, as in completely deleted. Coming out with a demand like that is just asking to lose right off the bat. Abolition of existing centralized paramilitary police departments in favor of rethinking public safety and social services and reconstituting and redistributing law enforcement within a new framework is an idea which has fa…

It's also extraordinarily unpopular, across the ideological spectrum[1].

>...which has fairly rapidly recently moved from the fringes to the mainstream of debate, and it is a policy openly and actively being discussed by many local governments, and already committed to by the Minneapolis City Council.

>but the Overton Window on that issue just underwent and sudden and massive shift.

Well you're right about that. Because it's insane, and generates clicks, likes, and retweets and so media keeps covering like it's actually popular despite the fact the inverse is true to keep generating their clicks, likes, and retweets. I've been waiting for the Star Tribune to actually run some local polling on this, because everyone I know still back there also thinks it's insane. My guess is they do run the polls, and don't publish the results for the same reason.

[1]https://twitter.com/databyler/status/1268555840098906115?ref...

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#148

Post by saalweachter »

DenisM wrote: post #89
conroy wrote: post #84

A friend lives in Seattle and texted me today about his visit last night: > I was there last night and it's such a cool pseudo utopian place > The media coverage of it is WILD > People on the internet are convinced it's protected by armed guards and people are dying of hunger and instead its...like a music festival campground > There are speakers, musicians, art walls. I took a group pic for a bunch of black guys las…

> like a music festival campground Every generation needs a Woodstock. Burning man is not real enough.

The tricky part of ephemeral culture is keeping it ephemeral while still allowing it to reoccur often in new forms, and not just having a crystalized form of spontaneity that future generations are supposed to appreciate in the correct way.

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#149

Post by quasarj »

ciarannolan wrote: post #22
docdeek wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One reddit thread suggests it is already heading that way. https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/h077uv/raz_simone_...

From the OP of that post: >tl;dw: Man was tagging over someone else's art, Raz and group approach and separate him from crowd, chasing him for two blocks. He begins to film them with his phone, they take it from him. He tries to get it back and they attack him, kicking him in the head and breaking his glasses. At one point, Raz threatens to shoot the man. They then begin to gaslight him that it was all his fault. Aud…

Well dang, we're certainly not inviting you to utopia.

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#150

Post by gen220 »

programmarchy wrote: post #134
gen220 wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This basically happens in Berlin every year on the May Day celebrations/marches. The police let the anarchists do whatever they want, within certain constraints (no injuring people, constrained to certain neighborhoods), and the anarchists only do it on that day of the year. Sometimes there are conflicts between the police and the rioters, but it never escalates to huge conflicts any more. It’s a display of mutual re…

This is a fitting explanation, and I think developing these kinds of rituals further will help heal some of the divides in this country. Your last paragraph reminded me of Eric Gans’ “Originary Hypothesis” [1]: > Gans hypothesizes that language originates in "an aborted gesture of appropriation," which signifies the desired object as sacred and which memorializes the birth of language, serving as the basis for ritual…

It’s definitely not an idea that originates with me! :)

I think I got it from a German Literature class. The professor had us read some formational texts, and one of them was a theory for the establishment of religion, written by some German 20th Century thinker. I can’t find the source now, but it was probably a pretty mainstream one, for all you internet sleuths out there.

He tried to put forward an evolutionary theory of religion. Basically, a tribe would come into conflict and children would kill their parents as a result. To try and prevent the same thing from happening to themselves, the children invented rituals that they taught to their children, so that they could control and direct their violence away from the parents. Instead of killing people, they would kill effigies made to look like people. Eventually, the children associate the effigies with their parents. But they like their parents, so they leave out the whole killing part when they teach it to their kids, who come to worship the effigies. They then kill animals instead of people. And so on. It was a really interesting exercise of rationalism!

If someone can find the source for me, I’ll give them my 2 internet points :)

Edit: I think it was Violence and the Sacred by Rene Girard.

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