Debt Collectors Are Transforming the Business of State Courts • Hacker News Board

Re: Debt Collectors Are Transforming the Business of State Courts

#141

Post by 6510 » Fri, May 08, 2020, 1:43 AM UTC

pests wrote: post #135

6510 wrote: post #134

What a depressing topic. Since one is responsible for his own debt and just forgiving it is unfair to those pulling their own weight perhaps the small amounts the article talks about should play part in setting the height of an initial basic income. If the income is guaranteed it can at least pay the interest over debt. It could become more interesting to get payments rather than sell peoples property and ruin their…

How is it unfair to forgive debt? What? Other people don't affect you.

It is only fair in the sense that people need to be able to move on. Unfair is perhaps not the right word but I struggle to think of a better description.

Ill try a perhaps stupid example I guess..

If I agree to borrow my car to you I kinda want it back eventually? In bankruptcy it becomes a conversation about who needs my car more? uhh??

Others should learn from that not to allow anyone else to drive their car (even if they badly need it) and that having the keys mean you don't have to give it back.

Banks creating money out of thin air does change the topic a lot.

I'd like to see a [small] basic income that pulls a substantial number of people out of the paycheck-to-paycheck horror movie.

Re: Debt Collectors Are Transforming the Business of State Courts

#142

Post by cwhiz » Fri, May 08, 2020, 2:03 AM UTC

imtringued wrote: post #131

cwhiz wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The outcome of that will be that lending standards go up substantially. Significantly higher interest rates and required collateral. The eventual end result is fewer people able to qualify to buy a car, buy a house, get a credit card, or go to college. These are significant drivers of economic activity. It's hard to put the genie back in the bottle.

Those artificially low lending standards merely enabled loans that shouldn't exist.

This is true but we did it for a reason. Buying a car used to require 35% down, 12-24 month payments, and 10%+ interest.

The average price of a new car is around $30,000. What percentage of Americans can afford a $10,500 down payment and a $900 monthly payment? I’d guess less than 15% but it’s just a guess.

Re: Debt Collectors Are Transforming the Business of State Courts

#143

Post by elliekelly » Fri, May 08, 2020, 2:16 AM UTC

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #15

netcan wrote: post #14

There have been journalists & researchers who covered these debt collectors at court. When defendants showed up, organised, they usually won. The debt collectors' lawyers didn't arrive prepared to win, because most people didn't show up. If you can win 85% of cases just by showing up, why bother. A court system that allows these dynamics to dominate isn't serving well.

And it only gets to court after harassment hasn't worked. Anecdata: guy I know had a common name. Debt collector fastened on him because he'd lived in the same town as a deadbeat with that name too. Guy would call day and night demanding payment.

Is it necessary to call someone with debt a “deadbeat”? Often the people who are being hounded by debt collectors are victims of predatory lending and a system designed to punish them with fees for being poor.

Re: Debt Collectors Are Transforming the Business of State Courts

#144

Post by Spooky23 » Fri, May 08, 2020, 2:24 AM UTC

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #15

netcan wrote: post #14

There have been journalists & researchers who covered these debt collectors at court. When defendants showed up, organised, they usually won. The debt collectors' lawyers didn't arrive prepared to win, because most people didn't show up. If you can win 85% of cases just by showing up, why bother. A court system that allows these dynamics to dominate isn't serving well.

And it only gets to court after harassment hasn't worked. Anecdata: guy I know had a common name. Debt collector fastened on him because he'd lived in the same town as a deadbeat with that name too. Guy would call day and night demanding payment.

We were on the receiving end of that when the debtor in question registered our phone number when she signed up for a CVS card. It took awhile to figure it out, but every time we picked up something there, we would get increasingly crazy calls from debt collectors and insurance subrogation people.

It got worse over time as the collection agencies sell bad debts at a discount, and the bottom feeders when the debt is close to aging out are awful.

Re: Debt Collectors Are Transforming the Business of State Courts

#145

Post by kyrieeschaton » Fri, May 08, 2020, 2:37 AM UTC

inetknght wrote: post #79

oh_sigh wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if you buy up the debt of rich people who can, but don't want to pay?

Rich people have unserviced debt? Wouldn't that make them poor people?

Tons of nominally asset-rich people find themselves with negative cashflow and in a personal debt crunch, even with positive net worth (or plausibly positive, depending on what assumptions you make about values in an illiquid market). You're going to see a lot of this in the near future as the real estate market implodes.

Re: Debt Collectors Are Transforming the Business of State Courts

#146

Post by mythrwy » Fri, May 08, 2020, 3:03 AM UTC

refurb wrote: post #139

bergstromm466 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dream on. "This is the age of rentier capitalism; rich countries are becoming rentier economies. A rising share of global income is going to rent, rather than to wages or profits from productive activities. This perpetuates inequalities: It disproportionately favors the wealthy, and accentuates inequality over generations. Through the spread of trademarks, trade secrets, copyright and, above all, patents, intellectua…

Your source says nothing about who pays the most taxes. So let me google that for you: "the top 10% of income earners pay 70% of all income taxes". https://www.kiplinger.com/article/taxes/T054-C000-S001-how-y...

To sum up both of your statements, the top 10% of income earners pay 70% of all income taxes, but an increasing percentage of the taxed income is derived from rents (which originate from the labor of the renter class).

Re: Debt Collectors Are Transforming the Business of State Courts

#147

Post by unishark » Fri, May 08, 2020, 3:20 AM UTC

intopieces wrote: post #118

sokoloff wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would selling debt make you morally not responsible for it? My mortgage has been sold multiple times. IMO, I still 100% have a moral (and obviously legal) obligation to pay it.

Unlike secured loans like mortgages, the cost of default for unsecured loans is already priced in to the interest rate of the debt. Once it gets sold a third party, that's just a bet by that company that they can strong arm you into paying them something above what they paid for it by exploiting your anxiety or misplaced sense of duty. They didn't earn anything -- they didn't create a service or good that you found v…

> Unlike secured loans like mortgages, the cost of default for unsecured loans is already priced in to the interest rate of the debt.

That cost likely also takes into account the money they can get for selling the debt of defaulters. Otherwise the bank down the street that does this more accurate calculation would be able to undercut them by offering a lower rate and take all their business. There's no free lunches.

Re: Debt Collectors Are Transforming the Business of State Courts

#148

Post by rmilk » Fri, May 08, 2020, 3:27 AM UTC

milesvp wrote: post #114

briffle wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have done that twice for family members, along with asking for proof of the debt, and that they are authorized to collect it. Both times, never, ever heard from the collector again.

My understanding with debt collectors, is that they usually purchase a spreadsheet with very limited data, and there is almost never a paper trail for said debt. Which also means debt has a habit of showing up on multiple spreadsheets that keep getting resold. I think planet money did a podcast on this topic. Patio11 also wrote about talking to debt collectors with regards to identity theft. https://www.kalzumeus.com…

This seems to the the correct understanding. See these two articles that give the view from people who tracked down the debt collections and the bad data in those spreadsheets.

Bloomberg: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2017-12-06/millions-...

NYT: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/08/15/magazine/bad-...

Re: Debt Collectors Are Transforming the Business of State Courts

#149

Post by taeric » Fri, May 08, 2020, 3:28 AM UTC

refurb wrote: post #138

wmil wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Food stamps allow wealthy people to hire help for less than it costs to feed their children. Before anyone jumps on me, I'm not saying letting their children starve is a valid solution. But anti-poverty programs unquestionably allow illegal immigrants to work for wages less than it would take to support their families lifestyle, which encourages them to come to the US. Upper middle class and wealthy people benefit fr…

By that logic, everything that helps the poor helps the rich. Not that helpful when it comes to policy decisions.

Combined with the logic that not everything that helps the rich helps the poor, it isn't that bad. Keeps you from trying to make the poor pay for policy, after all...

Re: Debt Collectors Are Transforming the Business of State Courts

#150

Post by taeric » Fri, May 08, 2020, 3:30 AM UTC

refurb wrote: post #44

taeric wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a narrow understanding. Rich individuals are setup to benefit from the programs for the poor. Such that what you say is both true and irrelevant. Poor individuals are not benefited.

Rich individuals are setup to benefit from the programs for the poor. Can you give an example how the rich benefit from programs like social security, Medicaid, food stamps?

The siblings to this post covered it, but I apologise for not responding.

Basically, a hiring class benefits from a healthy and safe hitting pool. For mostly obvious reasons.