Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Amazon VP Resigns, Calls Company ‘Chickenshit’ for Firing Protesting Workers

vice.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

141–150 of 205 posts

Re: Amazon VP Resigns, Calls Company ‘Chickenshit’ for Firing Protesting Workers

#141

Post by Pfhreak »

Udik wrote: post #138
itsdrewmiller wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This link might help explain things: https://www.scarsdaleschools.k12.ny.us/cms/lib5/NY01001205/C... I think "racist/sexist" may be muddying the waters a little bit since they are not narrowly defined and probably have more implication of motive, but de facto discrimination is a well recognized concept and it is illegal.

"De facto" as opposed to "de jure" means something happening without being mandated by law. This doesn't seem to have much to do with the GP's statement: >> If the firings disproportionately or systemically impact races or genders, the firings can be racist/sexist -- even if race or gender is not involved in the firing decision. If race or gender are not involved in the firing decisions, it means that the decision is…

> If race or gender are not involved in the firing decisions, it means that the decision is based on other factors.

Or it means that race/gender were involved due to implicit biases or systems beyond what the firing party believed they were evaluating.

One can unintentionally have discriminatory behavior. It might not have been a factor in the discussions of the firings, but it still could be a root cause.

Re: Amazon VP Resigns, Calls Company ‘Chickenshit’ for Firing Protesting Workers

#142

Post by mthoms »

gwright wrote: post #97
mthoms wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Why does everyone assume the actions of the little guy are always morally superior than the actions of the big corporation Simple. Morality is a human trait and corporations are not human beings.

The actions of big corporations are the actions of humans.

Yes. Humans with a fiduciary duty (legal obligation) to put shareholder value above all else.

Re: Amazon VP Resigns, Calls Company ‘Chickenshit’ for Firing Protesting Workers

#143

Post by brenden2 »

seibelj wrote: post #5

If you are very idealistic I would recommend working for a smaller company that aligns with your values. It is naive to join a company like Amazon or Google and imagine it is some progressive utopia. These are mega corps, and in my imagination I see them like The Empire from Star Wars, and you will be a storm trooper on the death star - just one worker among many. You will be on the winning team, well compensated, an…

Blog posts about unions won't stop them, but actual unionization will.

Re: Amazon VP Resigns, Calls Company ‘Chickenshit’ for Firing Protesting Workers

#144

Post by d33lio »

seibelj wrote: post #5

If you are very idealistic I would recommend working for a smaller company that aligns with your values. It is naive to join a company like Amazon or Google and imagine it is some progressive utopia. These are mega corps, and in my imagination I see them like The Empire from Star Wars, and you will be a storm trooper on the death star - just one worker among many. You will be on the winning team, well compensated, an…

I'm not that idealistic and I still found my time at Amazon overwhelmingly distasteful. The amount of shielding / work to just appear productive / effective at multiple levels of both tech and management was moronic.

I'd work for a big tech company again but wow was my time at amazon something I regret spending waking hours doing.

Re: Amazon VP Resigns, Calls Company ‘Chickenshit’ for Firing Protesting Workers

#145

Post by rukittenme »

Udik wrote: post #81
Pfhreak wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the firings disproportionately or systemically impact races or genders, the firings can be racist/sexist -- even if race or gender is not involved in the firing decision. Racism and discrimination are related but separate concepts.

> the firings can be racist/sexist -- even if race or gender is not involved in the firing decision Uh? Can you elaborate?

He's convinced himself that a contentious (re: Clarence Thomas and crew) legal precedent is actually a moral, philosophical, or logical position to hold.

Disparate impact is a matter of practicality. It isn't how a person should base their life or interactions with other human beings.

Re: Amazon VP Resigns, Calls Company ‘Chickenshit’ for Firing Protesting Workers

#146

Post by Udik »

Pfhreak wrote: post #135
Udik wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the firings can be racist/sexist -- even if race or gender is not involved in the firing decision Uh? Can you elaborate?

Racism is the systemic discrimination against a race -- ie, there may be systems in place that cause a particular race to be disadvantaged, even if those systems aren't consciously put there by anyone. For example, post redlining, many cities still have economically depressed areas that correlate with race. The policies that caused the issue are largely gone, but the systems created by them remain. (Systems, in this…

> there may be any number of factors that were not directly discussed as reasons to fire someone, but still impacted the firing decision. People may be unconsciously biased...

Sure. However this contradicts what you wrote earlier:

>> If the firings disproportionately or systemically impact races or genders, the firings can be racist/sexist -- even if race or gender is not involved in the firing decision.

(italics mine)

If race or gender is not involved in the firing decision, consciously or unconsciously, why would it be racist or sexist? The fact it disproportionally involve a group however identified (say, all vegans declare an illegal strike for veganism, and they're fired because of this) cannot be construed as a form of discrimination towards that group.

Re: Amazon VP Resigns, Calls Company ‘Chickenshit’ for Firing Protesting Workers

#147

Post by rickpmg »

MaxBarraclough wrote: post #133
rickpmg wrote: post #86

I think it would have been more effective if he just 'called in sick' (if that was possible for him) or staged an extended walkout of engineers. I have all my infrastructure on AWS and the prospect that it could all come to a halt immediately and unexpectedly makes me think of other providers or at least spreading my workoad to azure, google, etc.. and that should get Amazon's attention. I really don't think a single…

I doubt AWS would immediately fall over if some engineers walked out for a few days. Might still send a message though.

I agree.. it's the message that there is another 'point of failure' that no one has paid much attention to.

If you want Amazon/AWS to change it's ways, then you need to get the attention of CIO's.

And I think regular walkouts of 100 engineers who monitor the network is going to do a better job of getting it than a single architect leaving, no matter how much of a star he was.

Re: Amazon VP Resigns, Calls Company ‘Chickenshit’ for Firing Protesting Workers

#148

Post by pessimizer »

empath75 wrote: post #117
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why does big always become evil? Diffusion of responsibility [1]. I hypothesise the frequency of deliberate evil is similar among companies big and small. What's more frequent with large companies is unchecked sporadic harm. Over time, that accumulates into uncoördinated patterns of behavior. These patterns would get called out in a smaller company. Social mores almost force us to. But those mores get washed out in…

I've long thought that in many ways, a corporation is nothing but a system which shields people from the moral consequences of their actions. A company like Altria, for example, couldn't function if you were told your job was to give people lung cancer, so the company instead has layers and layers of bureaucracy and paper pushers so that each individual person takes actions which they're only slightly uncomfortable w…

I've always thought that modern corporate capitalism in general is a system that makes sure that you never actually meet the people whose weakness you are taking the most advantage of. Consumers and citizens encounter hourly-paid clerks and customer service reps who probably make less than they do, those clerks work under salaried managers who are overworked because they don't get overtime, those managers work under well-paid but even more overworked managers of managers, who work under well-paid, less-overworked, but more precariously-employed project/regional heads whose primary job is taking the blame for failures. Then you get to overpaid, overworked, secure people who dictate parts of the overall strategy of a company, the vastly-paid and secure people who run the place, and the people who passively own the place and take all the profits.

At every step, you are surrounded by people roughly as put-upon and desperate as you are. While profit filters up and compromise filters down, the only people to appeal to are in roughly in the same situation you are, if not worse off.

Not doing a survey for Philip Morris as one of those leaves of the corporate graph who faces the raw material of the consumer just means you don't eat, and they find another person who will.

Re: Amazon VP Resigns, Calls Company ‘Chickenshit’ for Firing Protesting Workers

#149

Post by Udik »

Pfhreak wrote: post #141
Udik wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"De facto" as opposed to "de jure" means something happening without being mandated by law. This doesn't seem to have much to do with the GP's statement: >> If the firings disproportionately or systemically impact races or genders, the firings can be racist/sexist -- even if race or gender is not involved in the firing decision. If race or gender are not involved in the firing decisions, it means that the decision is…

> If race or gender are not involved in the firing decisions, it means that the decision is based on other factors. Or it means that race/gender were involved due to implicit biases or systems beyond what the firing party believed they were evaluating. One can unintentionally have discriminatory behavior. It might not have been a factor in the discussions of the firings, but it still could be a root cause.

> It might not have been a factor in the discussions of the firings, but it still could be a root cause.

In which case it was a factor.

Re: Amazon VP Resigns, Calls Company ‘Chickenshit’ for Firing Protesting Workers

#150

Post by Pfhreak »

rukittenme wrote: post #145
Udik wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the firings can be racist/sexist -- even if race or gender is not involved in the firing decision Uh? Can you elaborate?

He's convinced himself that a contentious (re: Clarence Thomas and crew) legal precedent is actually a moral, philosophical, or logical position to hold. Disparate impact is a matter of practicality. It isn't how a person should base their life or interactions with other human beings.

I'm not sure what you are saying? I don't know what Clarence Thomas has to do with this, and "he" is incorrect as well if you are referring to me.
Post reply on HN