A twenty-year professor on starting college this fall: Don’t • Hacker News Board

Re: A twenty-year professor on starting college this fall: Don’t

#141

Post by cameronfraser » Sun, Apr 19, 2020, 11:28 PM UTC

lilt wrote: post #52

frankbreetz wrote: post #18

As a millennial college graduate, my number one piece of advice to college bound high schoolers is do the first two years at community college. The debt is not worth the experience. Most people spend the first two years figuring stuff out, community college is a great place to do that. I didn't even know this was an option until after college and I feel failed by my high school college advisors. Unless you are very c…

I don't think you read the article. It's telling people to defer a year because of coronavirus, not the usual college is not worth it schpeel. That being said, I disagree with your advice in two cases: 1) Most top schools offer free tuition if your family income is below a generous threshold (like $150k). If you can get into Stanford and meet this criteria, it's cheaper than your local community college. 2) If you ar…

> 1) Most top schools offer free tuition if your family income is below a generous threshold (like $150k). If you can get into Stanford and meet this criteria, it's cheaper than your local community college.

This is only a few private schools doing this and they account for well under 1% of all people attending university in the US so not really relevant.

> 2) If you are studying a technical field, even if you are average, a degree has greater ROI than just about anything else. You can pay off your debt in the first few years out of school and continue earning dividends for the rest of your life.

You're still getting a degree. I work/have worked with people who went to MIT, Harvard, Yale, etc. and the degree only mattered for them in the case they wanted to do research or for their first job. Beyond that it has very little value in the job market. The fact that I got to the same place they did without a degree also says something.

tl;dr you're choosing to disagree with good general advice because it doesn't account for 0.02% of americans

Re: A twenty-year professor on starting college this fall: Don’t

#142

Post by vntx » Mon, Apr 20, 2020, 12:17 AM UTC

frankbreetz wrote: post #18

As a millennial college graduate, my number one piece of advice to college bound high schoolers is do the first two years at community college. The debt is not worth the experience. Most people spend the first two years figuring stuff out, community college is a great place to do that. I didn't even know this was an option until after college and I feel failed by my high school college advisors. Unless you are very c…

This is optimal advice.

I got a full ride to a decent state university but I wasted the first 3/4 trying to figure everything out myself because my high school college advisors were useless and because my parents had never been to college so they couldn’t help me out either.

Going to community college first is cheaper and oftentimes, some professors I had at university showed up in community to teach The same courses so it’s better value too.

Re: A twenty-year professor on starting college this fall: Don’t

#143

Post by patrickthebold » Mon, Apr 20, 2020, 12:22 AM UTC

closeparen wrote: post #119

sramsay wrote: post #92

Another twenty-year professor here. I would just like to point out that this article is articulating -- with absolutely accuracy and lucidity -- every college administrator's worst nightmare. They've all been discussing the possibility (that parents and students will make this very decision) for weeks. It might be the right decision to make, but it would be absolutely catastrophic for most schools.

Universities would seem uniquely capable of just going into hibernation for a while. They do it every summer, after all. That tradition is even because of infectious disease risk! What does it really cost to park a campus in "summer mode" a while longer?

The people who work there might have been planning on 3 months w/o pay, but are expecting a job in the fall.

Re: A twenty-year professor on starting college this fall: Don’t

#144

Post by jkmcf » Mon, Apr 20, 2020, 12:39 AM UTC

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #41

jkmcf wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Korea Center for Disease Control and Prevention said it's trying to understand why the patients retested positive for COVID-19 despite previous negative tests. https://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2020/04/18/COVID-19-Survivor... Not to mention: Denver had a significant spike in 1918 when interventions were removed. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EVHzq2AWkAEhbJo.jpg Note: I didn't locate this image on WashPo's site.

I'm sure you see why a graph of just Denver is suspicious. It strongly suggests that the rest of the country saw a smaller second hump or no second hump at all, so the graph makers had to exclude it.

I don't see why it is suspicious. It may have been redacted but there's nothing intrinsically wrong AFAICT.

Howard Markel, M.D., Ph.D. of the University of Michigan Center for the History of Medicine talks about the 2nd hump:

https://www.mdlinx.com/physiciansense/covid-19-is-a-second-p...

Re: A twenty-year professor on starting college this fall: Don’t

#145

Post by q084yn39cptyth » Mon, Apr 20, 2020, 12:46 AM UTC

sramsay wrote: post #92

Another twenty-year professor here. I would just like to point out that this article is articulating -- with absolutely accuracy and lucidity -- every college administrator's worst nightmare. They've all been discussing the possibility (that parents and students will make this very decision) for weeks. It might be the right decision to make, but it would be absolutely catastrophic for most schools.

I'm a former professor (tenured) and have been watching from the sidelines. I've been discussing this all with my friends still in university faculty positions.

I agree with you 100% but think the prospects of returning are not nearly as dire as some are making it out to be. I also think it depends a lot on the institution.

A lot of schools are going to reopen in the fall. By then there will be incredibly extensive testing and lockdowns will be mostly gone by a couple of months at least. If the quarantines continue the economic losses will boil over and there will be riots. There will be an increase in cases in the summer and then it will subside.

Many schools won't have any choice but to reopen. When they do, they'll probably offer extensive testing to incoming students as a service, probably some sort of current-status test as well as antibody test, as a courtesy and safety matter. They'll also make it incredibly easy to get for students who return, and will probably have a lot of policies in place to allow students on campus, and probably will have some kind of hybrid system in place where smaller seminars and classes will meet normally, but other things will kind of be pushed to a combination of online classes and smaller in-person classes. Large lectures will be gone for year or so, which probably should have been the case anyway. Students will be on campus again, but will be offered a lot of health services and courses won't be quite the same. Sports might be on hold in the fall.

College age students are probably the lowest risk of COVID complications of any age group, which will ease concerns about pandemics.

The bottom line is it doesn't matter what 20-year professors say. The students don't have anything else to do, and for a lot of them, they're not spending their own money anyway, or it's money that's all in the future in the form of debt. So rather than sitting at home, with their parents they tried to escape, they'll return. Open the doors and they will come.

Besides this, the feds will throw money at the universities like there's no tomorrow as a way of stimulating whatever they can. It's easy to politically justify. There won't be many strings attach to bring needed reforms (for example, eliminating indirect funds on grants) as now is not the time to ratchet down the screws. As a result the inexorable march toward nationalized higher education will continue even more among R1 institutions.

Smaller schools might struggle if they don't have enough money, and public unis being screwed by states or municipalities already (Arizona, as an example) will be in crisis. But many others will grumble and panic and then be fine.

I wish like hell this crisis would instigate a lot of changes to the bullshit that is higher ed at the moment, but it will not. And I disagree with Prof. Klein in her advice, at least as blanket advice that applies to everyone: students should consider their unique situation, as every case will be different in these times.

Re: A twenty-year professor on starting college this fall: Don’t

#146

Post by pfranz » Mon, Apr 20, 2020, 1:34 AM UTC

lilt wrote: post #100

pfranz wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 2) If you are studying a technical field, even if you are average, a degree has greater ROI than just about anything else. You can pay off your debt in the first few years out of school and continue earning dividends for the rest of your life. What's the downside to going to a community college? Where I grew up the credits were transferable. They did say, "Most people spend the first two years figuring stuff out".…

I took some community college classes in high school through a program we had with them. The environment and students were very underwhelming. Your mileage may vary. I got to take relevant classes (CS) in my very first quarter of college. The first two years it was a 50/50 split. The biggest benefit was being among smart, interesting people. College was way better than any previous educational experience, by far. Tha…

> I'm just opposed to putting everything on hold for 2 years to do basic classes. I don't think a community college is the place to explore interests.

In my state a 2 year community college degree allowed you to transfer as a 3rd year student into any state university. You could also pick and choose individual classes, but they may not transfer directly. I believe a lot of states are like this. The only thing you have to be careful about is if you want to transfer out of state. Schools aren't incentivized to allow you to transfer credits (or test out of classes).

I just wanted to let others know that's an option and it shouldn't be stigmatized. I think I was a little too arrogant to pursue community college classes and because of my frustrations with the university I left.

Re: A twenty-year professor on starting college this fall: Don’t

#147

Post by gentleman11 » Mon, Apr 20, 2020, 1:43 AM UTC

downerending wrote: post #11

Arguing in the other direction, if you mainly just need the sheepskin, this might be an unusually easy time to get one. Personally, my college experience was mainly useful for discovering that my college experience wasn't going to be very useful for me. (Mildly interesting: The author seems to be this woman. https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/02/17/la-verne-seek... )

She’s been run out of her job for political reasons using the excuse she used the term “assassinate” instead of “fire” to describe getting rid of somebody. It’s childish and the school should be liable for slander at this point

Re: A twenty-year professor on starting college this fall: Don’t

#148

Post by pfranz » Mon, Apr 20, 2020, 1:47 AM UTC

marcinzm wrote: post #96

pfranz wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 2) If you are studying a technical field, even if you are average, a degree has greater ROI than just about anything else. You can pay off your debt in the first few years out of school and continue earning dividends for the rest of your life. What's the downside to going to a community college? Where I grew up the credits were transferable. They did say, "Most people spend the first two years figuring stuff out".…

>What's the downside to going to a community college? Where I grew up the credits were transferable. Depends on the quality of the school. If it's a top school then transferring can be difficult, you lose on networking opportunities (with students and professors), potential internships/summer research and arguably get a weaker education (although, true, it matters less the first couple years). I've taken courses at a…

> Depends on the quality of the school. If it's a top school then transferring can be difficult, you lose on networking opportunities (with students and professors)

Where I grew up a 2 year degree allowed you to transfer as a 3rd year student at any university in that state. The other option was to take specific credits at a CC and credit them to university (I believe degree focused classes were excluded from transferring in). At least looking at my program, none of your degree focused classes started until the 3rd year. All of the gen-ed classes were massive at the university. So a lot of opportunities for networking are minimized (unless it was around an extra-curricular activity).

My path was going to a university for a couple years. I ignored CC classes because I was a bit too arrogant, but left that university because of the BS. Much of that could have been avoided by taking some classes at the local CC. I ended up moving states to pursue a career and planned to get a degree if I hadn't started a career by the time I qualified for in-state tuition--but I never made it back to school.

Since then I've had the opportunity to interview college grads. That process has made me question the quality of many top school's education.

I don't think one path is better than another. I just wanted to let people know the 4-year university path isn't the only option. I wish I had finished a degree. I've poured over friend's class notes from college and grad school and wish I had the opportunity to take those classes.

Re: A twenty-year professor on starting college this fall: Don’t

#149

Post by Hydraulix989 » Mon, Apr 20, 2020, 1:57 AM UTC

Robotbeat wrote: post #22

Hydraulix989 wrote: post #13

By the time it is fall, this professor's advice will be obsolete. The death rate is already slowing down in NYC and Italy. The curve is flattened in South Korea and China, and there, many are going outside to cafes and the Han River park. San Francisco has had a grand total of 20 deaths. US is already planning to gradually reopen the economy.

On the contrary: Reopening before the test and trace infrastructure (like South Korea’s) is in place is likely to cause another wave right about the time when the Fall Semester is starting..

That sounds like pure speculation. We should be relying on data, instead of fear, for motivating our decisions.

Re: A twenty-year professor on starting college this fall: Don’t

#150

Post by Hydraulix989 » Mon, Apr 20, 2020, 2:01 AM UTC

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #41

jkmcf wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Korea Center for Disease Control and Prevention said it's trying to understand why the patients retested positive for COVID-19 despite previous negative tests. https://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2020/04/18/COVID-19-Survivor... Not to mention: Denver had a significant spike in 1918 when interventions were removed. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EVHzq2AWkAEhbJo.jpg Note: I didn't locate this image on WashPo's site.

I'm sure you see why a graph of just Denver is suspicious. It strongly suggests that the rest of the country saw a smaller second hump or no second hump at all, so the graph makers had to exclude it.

Beat me to it. It's really egregious how many disingenuously flawed graphs (one even suggesting that the death rate passed up heart disease!) and faulty mathematical models (dY/dt=kY) there are floating around. This is why education is important because ignorance is placing blind trust in the media (whose narrative of fear helps to glue more eyeballs). There's plenty of indications we've already hit the inflection point:

Nature: Antibody tests suggest that coronavirus infections vastly exceed official counts https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-01095-0

SFGate / Stanford: Study investigates if COVID-19 came to Calif. in fall 2019 https://web.archive.org/web/20200408180013/https://www.sfgat...

From the very article you linked (did you actually read it?): "'At the moment, we think there is no danger of further secondary or tertiary transmission,' Kwon said." We had 8 new cases today, and 6 were from Americans/Europeans entering the country. Given that I lived in Korea for two years and have a fair amount of friends and family there, I am a bit familiar with their situation.