Uber wants to redefine employment, labor groups are fighting back • Hacker News Board

Re: Uber wants to redefine employment, labor groups are fighting back

#141

Post by AnthonyMouse » Thu, Apr 09, 2020, 2:29 AM UTC

catalogia wrote: post #113

bhupy wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's debatable whether vehicle depreciation is a cost that needs to be included. For the majority of Uber/Lyft drivers, the vehicle is a sunk cost — they would have bought a car Uber/Lyft or not. These drivers use these cars for personal use when they're not driving on gigs. There are even drivers that buy cars just so that they can drive for Uber, but if Uber/Lyft didn't exist, those folks would still need t…

> Depreciation is going to inevitably happen to anyone that owns a car, whether or not they are a rideshare driver. Depreciation is partially a function of miles put on the car. Rideshare drivers put miles on their cars a lot faster than they would have otherwise. Either way, sfkdjf9j3j is right. Your source doesn't account for vehicle depreciation.

Compare the bluebook value of a typical car that might be used for this kind of work at ten years old with 120k miles (12k/year) vs. ten years old with a million miles (100k/year). The difference will end up being like $2500, because after ten years the car will be worth hardly any more than that no matter how many miles it has on it, and it can't lose more than 100% of its value due to higher mileage.

~$2500 amortized over 880k additional miles is <0.003/mile, and even less in net present cost because you don't lose it until you sell the car.

Re: Uber wants to redefine employment, labor groups are fighting back

#142

Post by AnthonyMouse » Thu, Apr 09, 2020, 2:46 AM UTC

clairity wrote: post #65

ogre_codes wrote: post #38

There are 2 big problems with on-demand/ gig employment. #1 Our current system of coupling healthcare and other life essential benefits with employment is broken. It makes it difficult for people to work small jobs or switch jobs. In order for gig jobs to be viable, people need to be able to get survive a broken foot without going bankrupt. #2 Gig-style businesses tend to vastly underpay employees. The early claims t…

> "Gig-style businesses tend to vastly underpay employees." to your point, this is a function of information asymmetries in the labor market. based on a rough calculation from a couple years ago, a gig driver needs to make about $18/hour (including downtime between rides) to break even against a minimum wage job. between that and additional tax and benefits burden, it's no wonder most people forgo deeper consideratio…

> based on a rough calculation from a couple years ago, a gig driver needs to make about $18/hour (including downtime between rides) to break even against a minimum wage job.

Is this counting the similar uncompensated costs for ordinary wage labor? Most minimum wage workers can't afford to live in the city center even though that's where jobs are concentrated. If you live 60 miles from work, that's not just 120 miles a day of uncompensated driving expense, it's two hours of uncompensated time.

If you use .55/mile as the transportation cost with that long of a commute for a job that pays $7.25/hour for eight hours, that worker makes... uh, negative $8/day. Which I guess makes the two extra uncompensated hours they spend commuting a benefit because they get to amortize their losses over ten hours instead of eight and lose $.80/hour instead of $1/hour?

This might explain why a lot of people prefer making "less money" working for Uber.

Re: Uber wants to redefine employment, labor groups are fighting back

#143

Post by pasttense01 » Thu, Apr 09, 2020, 3:02 AM UTC

bhupy wrote: post #70

GaryNumanVevo wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Buying healthcare as an individual is very expensive, since you're not buying in bulk. Some larger unions do have healthcare for members, but it's more of a bargaining chip to keep workers paying dues.

> Buying healthcare as an individual is very expensive, since you're not buying in bulk This is a common refrain, but it's actually not true. Individual plans operate as a giant "group" with other individuals, and the size of that group is often larger than most employer groups. There are a host of reasons why healthcare is expensive in the US, and the "bulk purchasing" is not really one of them. Source: I work in he…

Nonsense. It's cheaper to sell and administer one group policy that covers 10,000 individuals than do this for 10,000 individual policies.

Re: Uber wants to redefine employment, labor groups are fighting back

#144

Post by mirimir » Thu, Apr 09, 2020, 3:03 AM UTC

gamblor956 wrote: post #123

bhupy wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Travel time between gigs No gig in the world covers that. > Expenses On average, after vehicle expenses, Uber drivers make as low as $15/hour[1], and as high as $20/hour. And this is also assuming that one concedes the argument that gigs ought to reimburse expenses, which isn't true for most contract work. https://www.ridester.com/how-much-do-uber-drivers-make

In most contract work, expenses incurred by the contractor to fulfill the contract are almost always included in the contractor's invoice.

That was somewhat my experience. It was always the case where travel and lodging were required. Say, for attending depositions. But I did buy my own machines, and pay for electricity to run them. And I didn't invoice for maintaining stuff.

So was that just my own naivete? And now that I think of it, buying better gear hurt me, in that it took less time to do stuff. But on the other hand, it allowed me to handle larger datasets, which made me more attractive.

Re: Uber wants to redefine employment, labor groups are fighting back

#145

Post by CydeWeys » Thu, Apr 09, 2020, 3:20 AM UTC

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #141

catalogia wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Depreciation is going to inevitably happen to anyone that owns a car, whether or not they are a rideshare driver. Depreciation is partially a function of miles put on the car. Rideshare drivers put miles on their cars a lot faster than they would have otherwise. Either way, sfkdjf9j3j is right. Your source doesn't account for vehicle depreciation.

Compare the bluebook value of a typical car that might be used for this kind of work at ten years old with 120k miles (12k/year) vs. ten years old with a million miles (100k/year). The difference will end up being like $2500, because after ten years the car will be worth hardly any more than that no matter how many miles it has on it, and it can't lose more than 100% of its value due to higher mileage. ~$2500 amortiz…

Your typical rideshare car isn't nearly that old, though, and isn't going to make it to nearly a million miles either. You've cherrypicked every single variable to favor your case, and you did the calculation wrong besides (you need to use the starting value of the car, not the ending value). Do it again for a newer more valuable car, and a lot fewer miles put on it. You can easily see depreciation amounts in the thousands of dollars per year.

Re: Uber wants to redefine employment, labor groups are fighting back

#146

Post by bhupy » Thu, Apr 09, 2020, 3:32 AM UTC

pasttense01 wrote: post #143

bhupy wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Buying healthcare as an individual is very expensive, since you're not buying in bulk This is a common refrain, but it's actually not true. Individual plans operate as a giant "group" with other individuals, and the size of that group is often larger than most employer groups. There are a host of reasons why healthcare is expensive in the US, and the "bulk purchasing" is not really one of them. Source: I work in he…

Nonsense. It's cheaper to sell and administer one group policy that covers 10,000 individuals than do this for 10,000 individual policies.

Those 10,000 individual policies are paid for out of a shared pool of risk. The payer administers it the same way they administer a group plan. It is literally identical to a group of 10,000 individuals.

I work in health insurance.

Re: Uber wants to redefine employment, labor groups are fighting back

#147

Post by catalogia » Thu, Apr 09, 2020, 4:23 AM UTC

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #141

catalogia wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Depreciation is going to inevitably happen to anyone that owns a car, whether or not they are a rideshare driver. Depreciation is partially a function of miles put on the car. Rideshare drivers put miles on their cars a lot faster than they would have otherwise. Either way, sfkdjf9j3j is right. Your source doesn't account for vehicle depreciation.

Compare the bluebook value of a typical car that might be used for this kind of work at ten years old with 120k miles (12k/year) vs. ten years old with a million miles (100k/year). The difference will end up being like $2500, because after ten years the car will be worth hardly any more than that no matter how many miles it has on it, and it can't lose more than 100% of its value due to higher mileage. ~$2500 amortiz…

0.003/mile is many times lower than the typical reimbursement for miles traveled. I once relocated for a job by driving my car across the country and IIRC the company reimbursed something like two dozen times as much as that (not including gas, hotel and food expenses.)

Re: Uber wants to redefine employment, labor groups are fighting back

#148

Post by AnthonyMouse » Thu, Apr 09, 2020, 4:28 AM UTC

CydeWeys wrote: post #145

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Compare the bluebook value of a typical car that might be used for this kind of work at ten years old with 120k miles (12k/year) vs. ten years old with a million miles (100k/year). The difference will end up being like $2500, because after ten years the car will be worth hardly any more than that no matter how many miles it has on it, and it can't lose more than 100% of its value due to higher mileage. ~$2500 amortiz…

Your typical rideshare car isn't nearly that old, though, and isn't going to make it to nearly a million miles either. You've cherrypicked every single variable to favor your case, and you did the calculation wrong besides (you need to use the starting value of the car, not the ending value). Do it again for a newer more valuable car, and a lot fewer miles put on it. You can easily see depreciation amounts in the tho…

> Your typical rideshare car isn't nearly that old, though

Now, or when they stop using it?

The average car in the US is 11.8 years old.

> and isn't going to make it to nearly a million miles either

This is a completely plausible number of miles for a vehicle driven full time over the course of several years.

> and you did the calculation wrong besides (you need to use the starting value of the car, not the ending value).

No, you use the difference in value between the car with fewer miles vs. more miles at the point where it is replaced, i.e. the amount you lost at resale by having more miles on it.

The difference in value between the starting value and the ending value independent of miles is the loss due to age/time, which is a sunk cost since the car ages whether you drive it or not.

> Do it again for a newer more valuable car, and a lot fewer miles put on it. You can easily see depreciation amounts in the thousands of dollars per year.

Because then you're measuring the depreciation due to time (the sunk cost portion) rather than the depreciation due to additional miles, and the depreciation due to time is much higher during the first years of the vehicle's life.

It is also naturally much less efficient to do that in general. How many taxi companies are you familiar with that buy new vehicles, drive them for 10,000 miles/year for two years and then sell them? You can make anything cost a lot if you're willing to waste money.

Re: Uber wants to redefine employment, labor groups are fighting back

#149

Post by AnthonyMouse » Thu, Apr 09, 2020, 4:39 AM UTC

catalogia wrote: post #147

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Compare the bluebook value of a typical car that might be used for this kind of work at ten years old with 120k miles (12k/year) vs. ten years old with a million miles (100k/year). The difference will end up being like $2500, because after ten years the car will be worth hardly any more than that no matter how many miles it has on it, and it can't lose more than 100% of its value due to higher mileage. ~$2500 amortiz…

0.003/mile is many times lower than the typical reimbursement for miles traveled. I once relocated for a job by driving my car across the country and IIRC the company reimbursed something like two dozen times as much as that (not including gas, hotel and food expenses.)

That's because the typical reimbursement for miles traveled isn't primarily for depreciation, it's for maintenance (and also typically fuel).

Corporations also like to estimate this number on the high side, or include amortized depreciation due to time rather than miles even if the vehicle purchase was a sunk cost, because business travel is often tax deductible and this allows the company to offer the employee additional tax-free compensation.

Re: Uber wants to redefine employment, labor groups are fighting back

#150

Post by catalogia » Thu, Apr 09, 2020, 4:42 AM UTC

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #149

catalogia wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

0.003/mile is many times lower than the typical reimbursement for miles traveled. I once relocated for a job by driving my car across the country and IIRC the company reimbursed something like two dozen times as much as that (not including gas, hotel and food expenses.)

That's because the typical reimbursement for miles traveled isn't primarily for depreciation, it's for maintenance (and also typically fuel). Corporations also like to estimate this number on the high side, or include amortized depreciation due to time rather than miles even if the vehicle purchase was a sunk cost, because business travel is often tax deductible and this allows the company to offer the employee addit…

Fuel was reimbursed separately (I remember collecting all the receipts for that, food, and hotels) and I don't think maintenance would account for two orders of magnitude discrepancy. 0.003/mile is abysmally low.