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New Jersey needs COBOL programmers for their unemployment claims system

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Re: New Jersey needs COBOL programmers for their unemployment claims system

#141

Post by smabie »

xienze wrote: post #72
nodesocket wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I whole heartedly agree. The problem with government tech positions is they are not even competitive. Instead of hiring three mediocre or less than mediocre engineers at $60k, why not hire an amazing $150k - $180k engineer? I’m pretty sure they have ceilings on positions just so people don’t get outraged at government salaries, but incidents and times like these prove government needs to be competitive with private b…

> why not hire an amazing $150k - $180k engineer? If you're making that kind of money, you have a lot better options than working on some ancient COBOL system that processes unemployment claims.

150-180k total comp isn't that high of a salary for an engineer. It's above average I'd imagine, but probably not even in the top 20th percentile. As such, for 150-180k you should be able get a pretty decent (yet unexceptional) coder.

Re: New Jersey needs COBOL programmers for their unemployment claims system

#144

Post by burfog »

diek wrote: post #115
thaumaturgy wrote: post #32

I was sort of tempted to pursue this. I did a few years in the salty COBOL mines back when I was a PFY about 20...plus years ago. This niche probably hasn't moved very much since then and I could probably recall most of it after a few hours. I'm freelancing right now anyway and some other projects just vaporized. But. A quick skim of the postings is finding that what they're really screaming for is somebody who's bee…

SDLC is often used to emphasize that you need to be familiar with the full "Software Development Lifecycle". When I read SDLC I just assume they mean, "you need to be able to take a project from concept to deployment (including documentation for supporting it long term)". Depending on org structures, a lot of engineers only work on one part of that pipeline throughout their career.

Nah, this is clearly an IBM mainframe shop. SDLC is a layer 2 network protocol in the SNA stack.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronous_Data_Link_Control

Re: New Jersey needs COBOL programmers for their unemployment claims system

#145

Post by eesmith »

freepor wrote: post #130
ptx wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

COBOL was created in 1959. The term software engineering was coined in the 1960s. So it existed for most of COBOL's lifetime.

The term teleportation was coined awhile back too.

The term "software engineering", at least as used by Margaret H. Hamilton in the 1960s, was used to describe existing practices.

"Teleportation" was not.

Re: New Jersey needs COBOL programmers for their unemployment claims system

#146

Post by xyst »

chmaynard wrote: post #104

I assume that every state unemployment compensation dept. has the same basic set of requirements as New Jersey with a slightly different set of business rules. Here's a crazy idea: all 50 states could cooperate and hire a company to develop a flexible, secure, modern system that's easier and cheaper to maintain.

The basic set of requirements are the easy part.

It’s when you have to account for the differences between each state (50 factors!) is where the software becomes O(n^n) complex over the development of this product.

Even the best private companies struggle to build similar systems for a single entity.

I think each state should be accountable for their own programs. Avoids the “single point of failure” issue as well.

Re: New Jersey needs COBOL programmers for their unemployment claims system

#147

Post by BiteCode_dev »

neaanopri wrote: post #103
meow1032 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who works with a lot of state IT people, if they don't know how to hire programmers, they probably don't know how to manage programmers. In a bureaucracy, if the administrators are making these kinds of unrealistic hiring demands in a crisis, it probably means that the administrators outrank all programmers and don't trust them to make their own decisions. This is not an environment to work in.

This is a crisis, not a normal time. Fixing this system will make the difference between real people getting unemployment checks or nothing. That's worth enduring a bad boss for.

Problem is, that's how they get away with everything.

They fix nothing, then wait for somebody to need them enough, or have compassion enough to handle their mess.

Basically here, they are saying: we didn't listen to all those competent people that told us we should have cleaned this system a long time ago because one day it will bite us back. We didn't think technical debt was a thing. It has always worked. And it's virtual. And IT is always exaggerating anyway.

Now it does bite them back, and do they take responsibility ?

No. They ask for competent people to have mercy and save the day because the situation is dire. Because this is special this time, unlike the other times.

This is completely not like with the health care system that never got fixed and now the medical personal is paying for it so that the people don't suffer as much from this mismanagement.

They will not pay more. They will no fix anything. They will not respect you more, change the way things are done, or take any responsibility for this. And in fact they will probably guilt trip you into give up your health to overwork on this with less resources and for less pay because it's an emergency.

A friend of mine works in an hospital right now. She has been at work for 15 days straight. They already told her she won't get paid for the days she was not supposed to work but did.

Then as a final fuck you, if this turns out ok, if the catastrophe is avoided, they will get the reward.

The nurses or the programmers ? They will be forgotten in a week. Nothing will change.

But for the mismanagers, their superior will thank them for managing this situation well. They may even get promoted and have more responsibility.

So you have the choice between saving the money of poor people now and reinforcing the suck of the whole system, of letting people suffer for a chance of a redo and purging the ones that lead to this.

This is a terrible choice to have to make.

Especially since we have the empathy to make us discuss this, while clearly they don't.

Re: New Jersey needs COBOL programmers for their unemployment claims system

#148

Post by justmyopinion42 »

Hmmm. Sounds like every other mission critical emergency project in dire need of leadership, design and development. Perceived need way ahead of actual need, and legacy hiring practices (degree Requirements for legacy coders with 10 years experience and a degree, ha) not realistic to effectively recruit talented resources.

Job interview should include - what’s the definition of a legacy system?

Has anyone ever seen an emergency mission and time critical project where the SDLC WASN’T the first thing sacrificed for expediency? And the second is QA & testing - their delivery date remains fixed while development slips and slips.

The point is, if you don’t have leadership that has been there done that, knows what is coming, is solving tomorrow’s issues (like finding and hiring resources) so when the project gets to that point, the resources are there and ready, then you are in the false start phase that will continue until you admit it, and begin again with refreshed plan and clear minds.

Most SDLC’s do not recognize the false start as a very important first phase that must happen when a time critical emergency project is the only thing that can save the day. How long that phase lasts is dependent on how long it takes you to bring in the right leadership team to take control and begin anew.

Since they are in panic mode with the Governor pleading for “COBALT” programmers you know this is in the Coming off the rails / false start phase.

Some things you can’t short circuit around and luck out. not on really important stuff.

It takes some good minds with excellent experience to noodle out what needs to happen, how to make it happen, line up the political and technical ducks and make it happen.

This is a technology project using a rock solid mainframe programming language, COBOL. Don’t belittle it. Many of the nation’s largest banks still use COBOL based systems to process their mission critical applications, so quit whining about old mainframe technology being so obsolete.

Those of us who have been there fully understand there are no longer many or any users who understand what entire systems do anymore - because those legacy systems have evolved over the years, projects all justified by headcount reductions in the user community. That means all that knowledge is now encapsulized within that cobol code in those legacy systems.

So. If someone needs help responding to critical needs that were not anticipated (like an increase 100 or 1000 or 10,000 times the workload - New Jersey?), technology alone is not going to solve your problem, not quickly enough. You need many more people to do the processing of paying the unemployed until technology can catch up and take over.

Pay me now or pay me later I always say. If you don’t believe my predictions, Call me when you become enlightened and I can help you then.

Until then, good luck. PS: A legacy system is every system in production!

Re: New Jersey needs COBOL programmers for their unemployment claims system

#149

Post by eru »

neaanopri wrote: post #103
meow1032 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who works with a lot of state IT people, if they don't know how to hire programmers, they probably don't know how to manage programmers. In a bureaucracy, if the administrators are making these kinds of unrealistic hiring demands in a crisis, it probably means that the administrators outrank all programmers and don't trust them to make their own decisions. This is not an environment to work in.

This is a crisis, not a normal time. Fixing this system will make the difference between real people getting unemployment checks or nothing. That's worth enduring a bad boss for.

> Fixing this system will make the difference between real people getting unemployment checks or nothing. That's worth enduring a bad boss for.

In absolute terms, perhaps. But if you are moving away from taking jobs out of self interest, and into doing something for the public good; you might as well check out https://80000hours.org/ and pick the job that has the most positive impact.

My guess is that working any kind of 'normal' programmer job and giving 10% of your income to an effective charity would beat out enduring the bad boss in New Jersey.

Re: New Jersey needs COBOL programmers for their unemployment claims system

#150

Post by eru »

downvoteme1 wrote: post #84
thaumaturgy wrote: post #32

I was sort of tempted to pursue this. I did a few years in the salty COBOL mines back when I was a PFY about 20...plus years ago. This niche probably hasn't moved very much since then and I could probably recall most of it after a few hours. I'm freelancing right now anyway and some other projects just vaporized. But. A quick skim of the postings is finding that what they're really screaming for is somebody who's bee…

Don’t be surprised if this position then goes to an H1B contractor though. If enough anericans who have this knowledge do not apply because they - Hate the tech - Can’t provide their feedback to improve the system - Don’t like the salary offered even if’s greater than their current unemployment income, then is it for an offshore company to come in and fill that gap.

And that's why H1B is a sham. They should just auction off those visa slots to the highest bidders.

(The auction would also give politicians a nice incentive to find ways to increase the revenue received.)

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