Pro drivers are competing with gamers after F1 and Nascar canceled races • Hacker News Board

Re: Pro drivers are competing with gamers after F1 and Nascar canceled races

#141

Post by AmericanChopper » Mon, Mar 23, 2020, 7:02 AM UTC

JshWright wrote: post #65

AmericanChopper wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hamilton’s done a few exhibition sim races, and generally does very well in them. The skills translate much better from track to sim than they do the other way around. If you watch the break and throttle pressure on these streams, it’s obvious that the professional racers are much better. They do things like trail breaking, and managing engine power a lot more competently and consistently than the sim enthusiasts. I’…

Yeah, 100% agree that real experience translates to gaming experience better than gaming experience would translate to a real car. The sims that the teams run (especially the top teams) are significantly more advanced than a CodeMasters game and fancy steering wheel...

Not sure what the teams use these days, as they seem to have become more secretive about it as the technology has gotten better. But I’ve seen some of the commercial products that have the enormous surround screen, moving chassis, and thing attached to the helmet to simulate force on the neck. I’d imagine the better off teams have facilities like that. The software would certainly be better than the CodeMaster game, but I can’t imagine it being that much better than iRacing (apart from being more customised to the current tracks/cars).

Re: Pro drivers are competing with gamers after F1 and Nascar canceled races

#142

Post by lmilcin » Mon, Mar 23, 2020, 7:14 AM UTC

dasil003 wrote: post #125

lmilcin wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FIFA is a football simulator as much as Mortal Kombat is fighting simulator. FIFA is a game. The difference is simulator's main focus is reality, games' main focus is fun. If FIFA was for reality it would be closer to first person QWOP than isometric view of half of field where you have perfect information and you press a key and your player does whatever trick the key was designated to perform. The substance of the…

Cars have artificial controls that are relatively easy to simulate. Any sport where the primary impact is full human body mechanics is not likely to have a sim with transferable skills.

Car racing. In car racing as a driver you typically get your input through your seat and steering wheel. Due to lack of g-forces in typical simulator this is all compressed to force feedback in steering wheel. There are really powerful steering wheels that have very high definition of vibration and forces they can transfer and this gives a lot of information about how the car is doing on the track, whether you are loosing or already lost the grip.

Re: Pro drivers are competing with gamers after F1 and Nascar canceled races

#143

Post by deltron3030 » Mon, Mar 23, 2020, 7:14 AM UTC

I'm suprised that they don't explore VR telepresence, where they could drive a real F1 car, or a miniature version while sitting in a simulator. What's hard to simulate in virtual simulators besides gforces are the tyre models, it's basically the main interface between car and environment.

Re: Pro drivers are competing with gamers after F1 and Nascar canceled races

#144

Post by bscphil » Mon, Mar 23, 2020, 7:14 AM UTC

pzs wrote: post #128

ItsMattyG wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok so why are there not upside down tracks in formula 1 this just seems like the obvious next step.

It would make an already dangerous sport even more dangerous. Also, just because it may be theoretically possible it doesn't mean it is practically achievable. Think about what would happen if the driver can't approach the loop that turns the car upside down with enough speed, or within the angle range that's needed for the car to stay on it because of another car, or some problem... Basically any small mistake would…

Seems like some would have done it as a stunt at least, for sure. I agree with you that having it in an actual race would be infeasible.

Re: Pro drivers are competing with gamers after F1 and Nascar canceled races

#145

Post by mav3rick » Mon, Mar 23, 2020, 7:19 AM UTC

bikesandcode wrote: post #74

justin66 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's honestly not much of a counterexample, since you're talking about a 260hp car. Good on him for doing as well as he did, but it seems unlikely he'd be physically able to handle a Formula 1 car at all. The thing you have to remember is that it takes a demanding and specialized workout routine to get an experienced race car driver to the point where they can hold their head up through a turn in an F1 car. Some of…

Sure. But he went into that 260hp car effectively (physically) untrained. Give him a couple years of actual appropriate physical training and then what kind of car and for how long, is an interesting question. Ultimately, if you've got the brain/reaction times/feel for driving at a high level, what percent of the population has a genetic ability to do the physical parts of it, assuming they are trained? I dunno. The…

This is such a ridiculous discussion, the skills + physical training go hand in hand. You can't tack one on just like that. Many people don't have the drive or fortitude to survive the training let alone the race.

Re: Pro drivers are competing with gamers after F1 and Nascar canceled races

#146

Post by magicalhippo » Mon, Mar 23, 2020, 7:21 AM UTC

flyinglizard wrote: post #98

frankchn wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but an F1 car is on another level with 900+ hp (including ERS) at 740 kg with driver but not fuel.

It’s in the downforce. Up to 6G sustained lateral cornering. That’s worse than fighter pilots, which have their Gs applied vertically.

You see it on the necks of the Formula 1 drivers, they're quite massive. Doesn't come for free of course, some hard work-outs behind that: https://youtu.be/t0SoPeY8zE8?t=67

Re: Pro drivers are competing with gamers after F1 and Nascar canceled races

#147

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Mar 23, 2020, 7:23 AM UTC

W-Stool wrote: post #12

As someone who has raced formula race cars and who has been an enthusiastic participant in racing simulations since way back in the old days of Grand Prix Legends let me assure you - a simulated race car has almost nothing in common with the real experience other than your hands are turning a wheel and your feet push pedals. The sensations in a real race car are simply overwhelming - the noise, g forces, heat, and th…

[deleted]

Re: Pro drivers are competing with gamers after F1 and Nascar canceled races

#148

Post by sundvor » Mon, Mar 23, 2020, 7:24 AM UTC

joshu wrote: post #135

sundvor wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet properly tuned in 2020 it can get incredibly good for the money paid. Check Barry's channel at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCT_50ZiRFWSm7oziV1OZloQ , he's done some amazing work with his content. The last 5% will cost 95% of the money, as with anything.

I've driven fairly high end rigs (higher than the linked one) and found them very difficult to drive compared to the actual car and actual track. If you want to play around or aren't trying to learn a competitive edge, I'm sure these are great though.

Lucky you:)

Yes the feeling and even smell of the race track, that's beyond emulation. Had a GSXR600 a long time ago, after a CBR250RR. went to the track a number of times.. Scraping my knee on Philip Island doing 180km/h, starting to have the rear slide out and catching it by only gently rolling off (#1) the throttle ... the sheer thrill of the realisation that I mastered my fear of death... Impossible to put into words, and definitely impossible simulate.

Yet, this is all we have for the time being. A number of high profile drivers were already using the laser scanned tracks and iRacing to practice their race craft prior to races. They've spent a lot of time customising their rigs and settings to their exact preferences, I'm sure this also becomes a factor.

VR is also getting better, although FOV is a limiting factor we're only just starting to improve on. (I've only tried Lenovo Explorer, immersion is amazing but struggle to see the other guys.)

With the increased attention, this is a huge opportunity for growth in the sector. One thing is for sure: ESports will never be the same.

#1) the more natural untrained instinct to chop it would have caused a high side which at that speed would very likely have killed me

Re: Pro drivers are competing with gamers after F1 and Nascar canceled races

#149

Post by tempestn » Mon, Mar 23, 2020, 7:30 AM UTC

dumbfoundded wrote: post #87

puredata wrote: post #86

Correction, it's not the only e-sport that translates well. Much smaller scale but FPV Drone racing is heavily practiced on simulators as well and skillsets translate to one another pretty well.

Any sport involving any sort of physical contact is really difficult. The sports without are pretty easy to do while following CDC recommendations: poker, chess, golf, bowling, racing, biking. Sports like track & field are somewhat in the middle but they're just timed. It would be feasible to just have people do these alone in standardized conditions with a single moderator.

Don't you think to be considered a "sport" there needs to be an element of physical aptitude? Poker and chess are both games of skill, but I wouldn't call them sports.

Re: Pro drivers are competing with gamers after F1 and Nascar canceled races

#150

Post by djaychela » Mon, Mar 23, 2020, 7:35 AM UTC

It's definitely not circuit racing, but I had some experience in Rally driving for about 10 years. Did mostly gravel stuff, and did the UK WRC round 4 times in a self built car. Definitely low budget (and low talent!) stuff, but I think I have some experience and know how a car should handle on a loose surface.

I've never found a rally driving game that handles like a real car. The physics always seems off - in Dirt Rally (the last one I tried seriously, and the one that everyone raved about), the car still seems to have the old physics of pivoting around the centre of the car, but whatever, it's miles off. The mini cooper in there is about the same power and weight as the Skoda Felicia that I drove, but it behaves nothing like it. I wish it did, as I no longer have the money or time to do anything like this, and if it felt anything like the real thing I'd have a fun hobby to take part it. But I always get hugely frustrated when I can't get anywhere near what I used to be able to do - place the car with precision on the road, get a good rhythm up and start to flow, and don't seem to be able to adjust to the way the cars handle in these games. I'm sure some of it is that you can't feel what's going on - through the seat, steering wheel and pedals - in the way that you can in the real thing, but I think there's more to it than that.

Forza was pretty different - even playing it using just controllers showed that it was handling much like a car would on track (I've done some tarmac rallying as well, so I'm used to the limit on tarmac as well as gravel), but I'm not really interested in circuit racing, alas!