More emphasis on trains in Europe to replace flights • Hacker News Board

Re: More emphasis on trains in Europe to replace flights

#141

Post by pjmlp » Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 2:09 PM UTC

cranekam wrote: post #91

pjmlp wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you have to run like crazy hoping not to lose the connection train, being stopped in the middle of nowhere without any information, stuffed into wagons without air conditioning and possibility to open the windows, cramped with more passengers than available seats, without any place to stuff luggage, out of order toilets,....

The train from Zurich to Paris is a TGV with included (mandatory?) seat reservations, air conditioning and plenty of bag space.

TGV is the exception.

German trains pack as much people as possible and occasionally you can consider yourself lucky if you manage to reach your seat, if the wagon is still available to start with.

Re: More emphasis on trains in Europe to replace flights

#142

Post by pjmlp » Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 2:15 PM UTC

cranekam wrote: post #88

pjmlp wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thing is, not only it is cheaper, it is much more effective regarding use of time. Zurich to Paris just takes too long by train, and doing night trains isn't always an option.

> Zurich to Paris just takes too long by train, and doing night trains isn't always an option. It's a nudge over 4 hours by TGV from Zurich center to Paris center. That is almost certainly comparable to getting from city center to airport, checking in, waiting before flight, flying, waiting for bags, and getting to city center at the other end. Of course, if your source and destination are closer to the airport and y…

Lucky you, 29€ would be one direction regional train inside Germany, short range between major cities.

100€ both ways can be considered a good price, unless one also owns a Bahncard.

Re: More emphasis on trains in Europe to replace flights

#143

Post by WilliamEdward » Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 2:16 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #10

WilliamEdward wrote: post #3

Public transportation is eventually going to have to replace both cars and planes. Yes, it will cost a lot. Yes, it probably wont make profit. This is fine, it's a moral duty we have as a society and at the end of the day railways are far safer than roads. In the long run a densely populated city benefits tremendously from trains, as seen in any major city.

> Public transportation is eventually going to have to replace both cars and planes. ...but commercial airline planes are public transportation.

No, public means public owned and operated by government, ie: not private.

Re: More emphasis on trains in Europe to replace flights

#144

Post by prennert » Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 2:18 PM UTC

radicalbyte wrote: post #125

Shivetya wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because politics. Trains are very national in the EU and even after this many years that still gets in the way of effective train based transportation. Plus heavy rail is flat out expensive to put down and maintain and the cars are and engines themselves all contribute the initial cost of establishing a line as well as maintenance. Then the kicker compared to airline travel, you cannot simply reroute a train. It is s…

Privatized trains are worse, in the UK they've just given the go ahead for a $140 billion high speed rail project, HS2. A decade ago we build HS1, a 67 mile track between London and the Channel Tunnel, for a total of $7.6 billion ($112m / mile). HS2 is longer but its 330 miles of tracks will cost $400m / mile. The project costs make absolutely no sense: London is a special weird place in the UK where everything you b…

From what I understand HS2 was planned to become very similar to the tube with 18 trains per hour. This is more that one every 4 minutes. The trains would also run very fast. This allows for caring lots of passengers, but it also is very complex to achieve and accounts for a lot of the costs (as well as buying property).

Also inflation had to be taken into account when comparing projects that are decades apart.

So without knowing much about the details, it might well be that the costs are plausible to what was proposed.

Re: More emphasis on trains in Europe to replace flights

#145

Post by tgsovlerkhgsel » Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 2:19 PM UTC

pjmlp wrote: post #39

input_sh wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Especially when you account boarding, navigating the airport, having to show up at least half an hour before the flight, security checkups... All time-consuming tasks related to boarding the actual aircraft that you don't have to go through to hop on a train.

No, you have to run like crazy hoping not to lose the connection train, being stopped in the middle of nowhere without any information, stuffed into wagons without air conditioning and possibility to open the windows, cramped with more passengers than available seats, without any place to stuff luggage, out of order toilets,....

You get the same issue with connections whether you fly or take the train (I strongly avoid non-direct routes for this reason).

None of my train trips in Europe (Scandinavia, Germany, Switzerland) had the issues you mentioned.

In particular, the designers of the German ICEs seem to have realized over the past ~decade that people don't want to lift heavy bags overhead (especially if the compartment is too small), and that when the only other space to store them is the corridor, the corridor will be full of bags. They added dedicated luggage racks with enough space to actually fit your luggage.

Re: More emphasis on trains in Europe to replace flights

#146

Post by WilliamEdward » Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 2:20 PM UTC

postingawayonhn wrote: post #110

chrisseaton wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prices are set by what the market supports due to the value the product provides, not what the product costs to deliver.

Yes and no. The market has to at a minimum cover the cost of operation otherwise businesses will stop operating.

Not true, many industries don't return profit and are yet subsidised by the government out of necessity anyway, eg: farming.

Re: More emphasis on trains in Europe to replace flights

#147

Post by foepys » Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 2:21 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #82

papaf wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also cheaper by plane. Being a student with a limited budget, this very much affects my decision. My tips would be: * Book at least a week in advance. * Buy a Bahn Card 25. * Get up early. If you do this Berlin -> Munich is €44.90 next Saturday on the 4 hour fast train. Also don't forget, it costs around €11 to go from Munich airport to the city.

> Buy a Bahn Card 25 Why does buying an affordable train ticket always involve a treasure hunt of weird ticketing combinations and cards like this?

When I last rode the train semi-regularly I felt like I had to complete a PhD in train ticketing. I put at least 3 hours into researching the cheapest ticket and eventually, after riding for some time, discovered an even cheaper option.

In the end the cheapest option was not to use a BahnCard 25 or 50 but to buy two one-way tickets for each leg from the regional transportation provider via a smartphone app, because smartphone tickets are sold at a discount. It's wasn't just a bit cheaper but about 30%.

Re: More emphasis on trains in Europe to replace flights

#148

Post by Camas » Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 2:25 PM UTC

radicalbyte wrote: post #125

Shivetya wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because politics. Trains are very national in the EU and even after this many years that still gets in the way of effective train based transportation. Plus heavy rail is flat out expensive to put down and maintain and the cars are and engines themselves all contribute the initial cost of establishing a line as well as maintenance. Then the kicker compared to airline travel, you cannot simply reroute a train. It is s…

Privatized trains are worse, in the UK they've just given the go ahead for a $140 billion high speed rail project, HS2. A decade ago we build HS1, a 67 mile track between London and the Channel Tunnel, for a total of $7.6 billion ($112m / mile). HS2 is longer but its 330 miles of tracks will cost $400m / mile. The project costs make absolutely no sense: London is a special weird place in the UK where everything you b…

What does HS2 have to do with private rail?

Re: More emphasis on trains in Europe to replace flights

#149

Post by krn » Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 2:28 PM UTC

IkmoIkmo wrote: post #65

I really don't get why trains can be so expensive and what we need to do to fix that. To an extent, flying is just way too cheap. I mean, I was looking at a roundtrip london/barcelona just last week, it was $25. By train I'm looking at at least 10 hours, likely more like 15, and $300. Both the $25 and the $300 just seem wrong. Flying is way too cheap, but I also don't get how $300 per person is competitive against so…

> To an extent, flying is just way too cheap. I mean, I was looking at a roundtrip london/barcelona just last week, it was $25. By train I'm looking at at least 10 hours, likely more like 15, and $300.

That's because you are comparing standard railway companies with low-cost airlines. I believe that it would also cost around $300 to fly from London to Barcelona and back with British Airways or Iberia.

The era of low-cost railway companies in Europe is just beginning: FlixTrain[1] (Germany), OUIGO[2] (France), RegioJet[3], and LeoExpress[4] (both Central Europe) are now all offering long-distance train tickets from 10€.

[1] https://www.flixtrain.com/

[2] https://en.oui.sncf/en/ouigo/fares

[3] https://www.regiojet.com/services/services-on-board-of-train...

[4] https://www.leoexpress.com/en/services/our-fleet

Re: More emphasis on trains in Europe to replace flights

#150

Post by vharuck » Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 2:28 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #21

I think an issue for trains is a lack of an international unified system for routing, timetabling, booking, ticketing, labelling and so on. Planes are the same everywhere. Flight number, gate number, time, and destination, everything available in English. Easy. I can catch a plane in Japan no problem. When I fly into a foreign city and try to take the train into the city it’s always a whole big mess. Inconsistent sys…

Non-rhetorical question: Is this because international travel has always been a major part of commercial flight, while trains spring up in regions?

I skimmed a couple Wikipedia articles and tolerated the International Civil Aviation Organization's website[0], but couldn't find a group that decided the traveler-facing standards.

[0] https://www.icao.int/Pages/default.aspx