A guide to freelancing in Finland • Hacker News Board

Re: A guide to freelancing in Finland

#141

Post by cromulent » Fri, Jan 31, 2020, 12:23 PM UTC

Nextgrid wrote: post #105

cromulent wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not super hard to do in Finland actually, especially if you engage a local to help you. If you want to, you can become an e-resident and run a business in Estonia completely online. https://e-resident.gov.ee

Estonian e-residency doesn’t magically make you a tax resident of there and absolve you of your tax obligations to your country of residence. Some countries still require you to pay local tax on any income from foreign companies as long as you’re considered a tax resident.

Yeah, there are definitely shortcomings to that approach. I was just trying to address the:

"I can assure you that it's a 100% closed game. If you are not from the EU, you can only work for a European... you won't get the legal permission to found a business in Europe unless you basically got a European to found it for you"

comment as I have not found that to be true.

Re: A guide to freelancing in Finland

#142

Post by Jommi » Fri, Jan 31, 2020, 1:55 PM UTC

reaperducer wrote: post #120

inapis wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> These programs offer grants and other benefits to 'the right kind of startups' - usually ones that are fashionable because the subject is currently hyped - ai, climate change, etc. > I imagine there's a lot of 'who you know' going on, too. Isn't this pretty much everywhere? US/India/China? And it's probably not limited to just government programs but even Angels/VCs/press are prone to hype? The current product I'm…

Isn't this pretty much everywhere? No. In the United States, the majority of businesses get funding because the founders have a good business plan. It's sometimes easier if you know the right people, but only if you seek capital from those types of people.

oh boy do you live in a bubble... :D

Re: A guide to freelancing in Finland

#143

Post by Jommi » Fri, Jan 31, 2020, 1:56 PM UTC

hopia wrote: post #104

mattmanser wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny how there's tons of companies in Europe still. What it actually lacks is the silly money of SV VC. It's got the entrepreneurs, and it's got the risk taking, it's just not got the massive VCs. So Europeans make different kinds of companies. It costs £19 to start a business in the UK, and you can do it in 5 minutes online, so again, you're wrong on the causes. If you want to talk about crazy bureacracy just raise…

The vibe I got from his post was that the formalities starting a company aren't the bottleneck, perhaps more of a symptom instead. Just about everything he said applies to Finland too. Registering a company means putting ~3000 € on the table but sure, you can do it fairly quickly online.

Registering a company in Finland does not require 3000€ or even close to that. The figure is closer to 100€.

Re: A guide to freelancing in Finland

#144

Post by hopia » Fri, Jan 31, 2020, 2:39 PM UTC

Jommi wrote: post #143

hopia wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The vibe I got from his post was that the formalities starting a company aren't the bottleneck, perhaps more of a symptom instead. Just about everything he said applies to Finland too. Registering a company means putting ~3000 € on the table but sure, you can do it fairly quickly online.

Registering a company in Finland does not require 3000€ or even close to that. The figure is closer to 100€.

When I registered mine the minimum required amount of stock capital was 2500 €. That cash needed to be on the company's bank account before the registration was formalized. The notice to trade register to formally incorporate the company was 450 €.

Looks like the first rule was abolished last year. The notice to trade register now costs 275 € electronically, or 380 € in paper form.

Re: A guide to freelancing in Finland

#145

Post by olegp » Fri, Jan 31, 2020, 4:10 PM UTC

climate_realist wrote: post #36

I think people here who look at Finland and Europe in general and see these social programs to help you get ahead are rather blinded by the reality that they only exist for Europeans. As a US citizen who lived in Europe for 5 years, I can assure you that it's a 100% closed game. If you are not from the EU, you can only work for a European. It makes no difference if you have a great idea, or even your own funding, you…

That's certainly not the case in Finland, where you just need to have one Finnish resident on your board in order to incorporate. There's also the startup permit (https://www.businessfinland.fi/en/do-business-with-finland/s...), which lets you get that residence permit in the first place.

Coming back to the topic of the original post though, in order to work as a freelancer in Finland, you do not need to incorporate to begin with and you certainly don't need to set up an LTD right away as the guide suggests. In fact doing so, can be counter productive, since while setting up a company is easy, shutting own down and becoming an employee again is not simple around here.

I'm running Toughbyte (https://www.toughbyte.com/) and we act as one of the brokers for freelancers in Finland such as the ones mentioned in the guide. What I've been recommending to those wanting to go freelance is that they first try to become employed by a broker on a fixed term contract or work through a cooperative (osuuskunta in Finnish). After that, they can set up an individual entrepreneurship (toiminimi) and only once they've had consistent revenue for about a year, consider setting up an LTD (OY). The limited liability that an LTD provides isn't strictly speaking necessary when working as part of a team on a times and materials basis.

Re: A guide to freelancing in Finland

#146

Post by growlist » Fri, Jan 31, 2020, 5:13 PM UTC

euro_expat wrote: post #73

growlist wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is also why you really don't see any actual innovation come out of Europe. ...as opposed to I suppose the amazing 'innovations' coming out of the US, such as shiny overpriced phones with overpriced proprietary cables, a taxi service with an app, some media-streaming services grown large based on their media content rather than innovation per se, and a plethora of disguised surveillance programmes? Wow thanks Ame…

Can you name a single thing that you would consider innovative from Europe? I'm serious, I just can't think of anything. These are good people for making a slightly better Mercedes than last year's model, but they won't be cooking up the next iPhone anytime soon. The system there does not reward risk takers, the smart move is incremental updates to well established existing products.

But the iPhone was only commercially innovative really - as I understand there was prior art for all the critical parts of it including adding a touchscreen to a phone, going back quite a long way. American automotive engineering has until very recently been laughably backward; Tesla is an exception. Formula 1 is almost exclusively European (in fact largely British). Rolls-Royce are at the forefront of jet engine manufacturing. If you don't think these examples involve innovation, well...

Re: A guide to freelancing in Finland

#147

Post by machiaweliczny » Sat, Feb 01, 2020, 10:45 AM UTC

throwaway13337 wrote: post #45

climate_realist wrote: post #36

I think people here who look at Finland and Europe in general and see these social programs to help you get ahead are rather blinded by the reality that they only exist for Europeans. As a US citizen who lived in Europe for 5 years, I can assure you that it's a 100% closed game. If you are not from the EU, you can only work for a European. It makes no difference if you have a great idea, or even your own funding, you…

I am also an American who lived in Finland, Austria, and Denmark for, cumulatively, over 5 years. I now own and run a small but successful bootstrapped American SaaS. What bothered me is that in all the above countries, they try to encourage entrepreneurship through rigged government programs. These programs offer grants and other benefits to 'the right kind of startups' - usually ones that are fashionable because th…

Sad, but true. The good thing is there are more and more private investors, which allow to bypass this bullshit.

Re: A guide to freelancing in Finland

#148

Post by fit2rule » Sun, Feb 02, 2020, 10:07 AM UTC

climate_realist wrote: post #36

I think people here who look at Finland and Europe in general and see these social programs to help you get ahead are rather blinded by the reality that they only exist for Europeans. As a US citizen who lived in Europe for 5 years, I can assure you that it's a 100% closed game. If you are not from the EU, you can only work for a European. It makes no difference if you have a great idea, or even your own funding, you…

>only exist for Europeans.

Well, actually, no. They're reciprocal, actually.

US citizens in Austria are generally treated similar to the way Austrian citizens would be treated in the US. Reciprocation is a basis of international relations.

Also, its entirely possible to get residency in "Europe", if you understand that "Europe" is not just London or Paris.

(Disclaimer: non-european citizen with 20 years residency and legal work/founder status, lived)

Re: A guide to freelancing in Finland

#149

Post by mindjiver » Mon, Feb 03, 2020, 7:02 PM UTC

pillefitz wrote: post #132

mindjiver wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah,as someone that did the switch from employment to self-employment in Germany it was not exactly straight forward.

As I'm going to be in the same boat soon, what were your issues in a nutshell if I may ask?

I got different answers from the people I talked to, the lawyer, accountant and insurance broker all told me different things, i.e. if I was to start a GmbH, a Gewerbe or be Selbständig/Freiberufler. In the end I went the Selbständig-route and it has been good so far.

Also since I have been 100% working for US based companies remotely I needed to figure out tax implications and there most of the time I had to research things own and explain to my accountant due to the the accountant not knowing English. I guess I could find a better accountant but now after a year the accountant knows how things work and I'm too lazy to switch now.

Other than that getting the insurances in place and bank accounts took some time, but not too bad in the end. But a guide would have helped. :)