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Education and Men without Work

nationalaffairs.com

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Re: Education and Men without Work

#141

Post by jbay808 »

leereeves wrote: post #132
jbay808 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the parent meant otherwise. Or are you suggesting that Americans looking for unskilled factory work can just move to China and get a job? Aside from the cost and language barrier and family ties and other challenges of relocating, I think legal barriers alone (visa issues, work permits) would make that hard. It's already hard enough even for highly skilled professionals to get work permits in another co…

I just think it's important to properly identify the nature of the problem, so we can try to solve it. Many people assume that we don't have factories anymore because of automation, but worldwide, manufacturing employment is still enormous. An import economy is good in some ways, but it's bad for people who would like to have a factory job.

Ah... It was beyond my imagination that GGP would believe, or intend to imply, that there's any shortage factory work to be found in China. But since you find that you do meet people who actually believe that... Then all I can say is I'm just very amazed!

Re: Education and Men without Work

#142

Post by ameister14 »

downerending wrote: post #52
andonisus wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does this have to do with men?

One should always ask "compared to what?". Is this a male-specific phenomenon, or is it actually happening to all? (perhaps with females lagging by a few years) The answer matters if you're trying to solve the problem.

>One should always ask "compared to what?". Is this a male-specific phenomenon, or is it actually happening to all? (perhaps with females lagging by a few years)

The linked article does ask this - it's less helpful to use women as a counter though, as for a very long time they have had drastically different labor participation rates. The article uses men in different circumstances to illustrate their points

Re: Education and Men without Work

#143

Post by metalliqaz »

vharuck wrote: post #124
Mirioron wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the two causes listed in the article are actually the causes. I think both are yet another symptom of an underlying problem. I would argue that men doing worse in schooling is likely another symptom of the same issue. I think that the heart of the issue is that more men nowadays feel that they just don't matter. Not to society nor to anyone else. This leads to a situation where they will simply sacrific…

What about the idea that the passing on of power (wealth, social, political) is happening less as people live longer? It would explain why the problem's more pronounced in Japan (long life expectancy, culture of seniority).

this is a very interesting idea

Re: Education and Men without Work

#144

Post by neixidbeksoxyd »

WalterBright wrote: post #94
tathougies wrote: post #5

The article is long on detail and short on suggestions (which is understandable). However, the suggestions it does make are not obviously going to work. The men illustrated in the article do not seem incapable of work, but rather disinterested. Vocational training isn't going to fix the fact that the government benefits the article cited allows the men to stay at home playing video games all day. Most people (but esp…

> stay at home playing video games all day Playing video games is monumentally boring after a short while. I just can't understand people who disappear into them. Even the game I wrote for myself ( classicempire.com ) I rarely actually played, I'd spend my time trying to make the computer AI play better.

Many (most?) Of the time the choice isn't between video games and a fullfilling career. It's between a shitty job and games. It's very easy for me to say I would never do that, but I also have a pretty good job and a decent social life. Games also provide some sense of community that is increasingly harder to find in real life, especially if you're not successful by some metric.

Re: Education and Men without Work

#145

Post by helen___keller »

allovernow wrote: post #102
jfengel wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem, I think, is that the article seems to believe that the solution is "return to the 1950s". The world has changed. The relationships between men and women have changed. The relationship of the economy to individuals has changed. The article seems predicated on the notion that this number (male participation in the labor force) is the metric that matters, rather than anything about their mental health -- ha…

>The relationships between men and women have changed. The relationship of the economy to individuals has changed. >Well, if only women would return home, there would be more lucrative jobs for men, and more need for the women to be taken care of by a man". That ship has sailed Worth noting that the current changes are explicitly counter to traditional roles which have existed for thousands of years. Yes, appeal sole…

So... what do you want? A government program to promote the joys of being a housewife? Do you really think that will move the needle on a systemic socioeconomic issue?

Or would you rather see an authoritarian solution? I'm sure that will go over well.

Keep in mind regardless of what you want as a woman, there's very real economic risk to being dependent on a man. Wanting to live a happy life as a housewife doesn't put food on the table when he loses his job and doesn't pay rent when he divorces you. It doesn't make life any easier when you find he has a mistress but you don't have the means to leave him.

Meanwhile, for those who are in the money with well-paying careers and considering quitting work to settle down, the opportunity cost of leaving behind your career is enormous: you are leaving tons of cash on the table even if you plan to rejoin the workforce later (as your career is not progressing for N years), you are giving up your dreams of vacationing abroad for maybe 18 years, and so on.

And this is all assuming the man even makes enough on his own to pay for the family. Many households simply require two paychecks in today's economy, and what you want as an individual will be trumped by the cost of rent every time.

I happen to agree that there's nothing wrong and nothing subservient with being a housewife. But to sum up such a complicated and vast socioeconomic development as merely "shaming two or so Western generations into believing that the life of a housewife is menial and subservient" is patently ridiculous.

Re: Education and Men without Work

#146

Post by majormajor »

allovernow wrote: post #140
majormajor wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which social changes would you roll back to counteract the technological changes that have resulted in menial jobs without a career ladder or higher-than-subsidence pay? How would we be better off with a bunch of men chasing these same still-meaningless jobs but with more dependents tied to them ? How should we value the frustrations of the people least suited to compete in this new system against the frustrations of…

I don't think you understand my argument. This isn't about defining what is and is not menial or what kind of lifestyle is socially acceptable. The point is that the job market is a market like any other - if you double supply without changing demand, price for labor (wages) goes down. >You preach a return to historical tradition but those traditions were forged in a vastly different technological landscape with far…

But then what does that "healthy middle" actually look like without reverting the doubling of supply of labor?

I think you are overgeneralizing about "human nature" and under-valuing people's choices, based on what you're reading/hearing/seeing about one particular group of people.

It seems like you're suggesting "pushing" this group back into the rat race because of genetic disposition to respond to competitive pressure, but I'm highly doubtful that people who are already voluntarily dropping out of the competition/rat race, who aren't chasing the cars/glory/money/women/whatever, are going to be well-served by that.

Re: Education and Men without Work

#147

Post by kevingadd »

freepor wrote: post #97
tathougies wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Government benefits in the US are not shit, at all. They are very generous if you qualify. The issue is qualifying, or lying to do so.

Hm, then I suspect that soon enough those benefits will go the way of the LL Bean return policy.

Historically the benefits are either narrowed in eligibility or more constraints are added. For example, while you can call federal disability benefits "generous" there are lots of nasty constraints that make them awful regardless - while your disability benefit may be "generous" you're forbidden from having much in the way of savings and your "net worth" for that calculation often includes things like a retirement account from work you did while you were still healthy. (Yes, really)

Means-testing and carve-outs like that to catch "cheaters" are a common way to eat away at benefits in the US, and politicians are actively adding more stuff like that to food assistance and other programs currently. Means-testing is especially effective here because a "reasonable" limit can be set with the knowledge that the limit will cease to be reasonable after 5-25 years of inflation and expense increases because lawmakers will never, ever raise the limit.

Re: Education and Men without Work

#148

Post by j-c-hewitt »

rpiguy wrote: post #32
duxup wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the fact that the government benefits the article cited allows the men to stay at home playing video games all day Is that actually the case? The article takes issue with the narrative that supply and demand are involved ... but I don't think this article proves this idea that folks are enjoying government benefits and that results in them not working. The article certainly mentions it, but is pretty short on evide…

Disability is a federal benefit (not state) and according to the article a whopping 2/3 of these men are on at least 1 federal disability benefit. Furthermore, 1/2 of the men take prescription pain medication daily. The government benefits certainly make it easier to not work, but the article does pain to say that correlation is not causation - it is a multi-factor phenomenon. Government benefits may enable the behav…

In Europe the benefits are not necessarily tied to being diagnosed with a disabling condition. In the US they are, so people do what they can to manifest a disabling condition so that they can qualify for generous benefits along with drugs that can be resold on the black market. Clearly this was not the intended result but it's sort of a third rail politically so there has been no real movement towards reforming this in any meaningful direction.
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