Live data from Hacker News

How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

npr.org

141–150 of 186 posts

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#141
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As recently as last year a USA backed coup removed the president elected by more than 50% in Bolivia because they nationalized gas and were exploiting lithium themselves.

The USA issued statements supporting the ousting of Morales. That was the extent of USA's involvement. That does not really make it a "USA backed coup". Unless you believe it just because that's what Morales claimed.

For starters the OEA central role in sustaining the hypothesis of electoral fraud without any proof, setting this discourse and mantaining it with the help of mainstream media. You can see Pompeo and others telling Evo not to participate, then calling fraud, then supporting the coup. This was already setup and known by many in advance. There are audio proofs of that since before the election.

Then through the Escuela de las Americas "educating" and controlling the military and police. For example Williams Kaliman who asked Evo to resign left immediately after the coup to USA and lives now there. There's also many politicians from the previous era who live in the USA, some of whom have capture orders for the killings that happened before the Morales era.

Finally by financing local groups to cause caos and "effect campaigns", like attacking local politicians, humiliating them and later publishing videos or making them march nude in the streets or covered in paint. You can see how the modus operandi is the same as the "guarimbas" in Venezuela, young groups, travelling by 2 in motorcycles, hitting and running.

Of course this supports on local groups and politicians without whom it would be harder or more evident to do.

https://www.hispantv.com/noticias/opinion/442254/rol-embajad...

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#142
post #113

Please if you are interested in this read more. This article is just garbage. Start with wiki it is actually surprisingly good. “The official pretext for the start of the coup was Mosaddegh's decree to dissolve Parliament, giving himself and his cabinet complete power to rule, while effectively stripping the Shah of his powers.[13][14][15]” Say Boris Johnson dissolves parliament takes all of the power into his own ha…

Interestingly enough your surprisingly good starting point (I can't tell since Wikipedia political articles are often heavily biased, so if I trust this one as impartial I'd be suffering from Gell-Man amnesia again) has this to say:

> The Shah himself initially opposed the coup plans, and supported the oil nationalization, but he joined after being informed by the CIA that he too would be "deposed" if he didn't play along.

It also has this to say:

> During the coup, Roosevelt and Wilber, representatives of the Eisenhower administration, bribed Iranian government officials, reporters, and businessmen. They also bribed street thugs to support the Shah and oppose Mosaddegh. ...

> Another tactic Roosevelt admitted to using was bribing demonstrators into attacking symbols of the Shah, while chanting pro-Mosaddegh slogans. ...

Is this surprisingly good or is it laughable legend again?

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#143
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. It's really sad. Iran had/has so much potential.

In that regard, the current offensive action may as well be viewed as a breath of fresh air. If blood must be shed to end tyranny, perhaps it is a worthwhile gamble. The Iranian people gain nothing from allowing the current regime to grow. A US-Iran war would almost certainly result in a democratic Iran, with a connected and educated populace capable of maintaining it. I think one of the main flaws in Iraq and Afghan…

> A US-Iran war would almost certainly result in a democratic Iran

Could you kindly remind us when was the last time USA successfully exported democracy with a war?

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#144
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What I do know is that the Iraq war absolutely ended the suffering of people under Saddam Hussein's dictatorship, and the Afghanistan war somewhat ended the suffering of people under Taliban rule (the Taliban unfortunately still exists but is definitely not as strong as it used to be). What I don't know, and I don't think anyone can really know, is if the loss of those governments and introduction of our armed forc…

It never cease to amaze me how blind are people in so-called democracies. People of Iraq were suffering exactly how under Saddam? Now many of them are dead because of the war. Infrastructure destroyed. Many people are suffering from ecological disaster (depleted uranium and toxic waste where us bases were located). And still there's no peace and no democracy. To everyone in the world outside the US is obvious that wa…

> People of Iraq were suffering exactly how under Saddam?

The answer to that question has its own Wikipedia page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Saddam_Hussein...

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#145
post #120
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whatever Russia has done, I don't see it as a threat to the security of the world as a whole. Russia lacks the ability to project force around the world (e.g. it lacks aircraft carriers and a modern air force) and the EU's military spending alone is ~4x Russia's _before_ the Ruble collapsed. The US however has an obscene amount of military power and has shown that it's happy to use it for a full-scale invasion of ano…

That's not exactly a fair comparison, since Russia hasn't had the funding to make any large-scale invasions since then. However they were more than happy to cut off oil to Europe just a few years ago, invade Ukraine, and generally act in a belligerent way toward several different countries in an effort to destabilize their neighbors.

> That's not exactly a fair comparison, since Russia hasn't had the funding to make any large-scale invasions since then

I don't understand how this makes the comparison unfair. Whatever the reason (e.g. lack of funding), Russia can't have quite the same impact in conventional warfare as the US.

> However they were more than happy to cut off oil to Europe just a few years ago, invade Ukraine, and generally act in a belligerent way toward several different countries in an effort to destabilize their neighbors.

The original article shows that the US is also happy to use various methods available to it to screw around with other countries. Unlike Russia, it's able to get away with it (perhaps due to its conventional military might).

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#146
post #7

Most western people are very negative about countries like Iran, China and Russia because they are the 'bad guys'. Well this article again shows that there are few countries that will not gain power over dead people. It's sad but true. Now imagine you were living in Iran and came to know about the work of the CIA. Whould you think the USA is the greatest country in the world and democracy is the way to go? I think it…

Iran is still suffering heavily from that coup. That was the closest we ever were to a democracy. However, democracy is very fragile, specially at the beginning. And it was shattered and to this day, we never got as close. Tyrant regimes come and go and we still think what might've been. We could've easily been another France in middle east. Source: Iranian living in the U.S.

As an Iranian living in the US, what's your perspective on the recent claims by US officials: things like Iran attacking civilians in Saudi Arabia and US forces in SA and Iraq, seizing tankers, and supporting militias who were attempting to take over Iraq and killing protestors there?

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/u-s-says-iran-may-have-ki...

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/military/u-s-officials-iran-off...

https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/19/middleeast/british-tanker-sei...

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#147
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can and should discuss reasons which led to current state of the world but there is nothing ambiguous about Iran, China and Russia being bad guys today. No need to put it in quotes. They are indiscriminately killing people in tens of thousands, annexing neighbor territories and in general maintain inhuman totalitarian regimes. And this happens today.

and you can say the same about the US. You don't have to repeat it all over the thread. we should stop looking at everything as black and white. Lets discuss reason why it ia in the current state. Would Iran be in this position today if we hadn't tried to install our democracy to them back in the 50s?

First - I never said that USA is good or did nothing bad. Second - what I was saying is exactly what you have said - world is not black and white, there is lots of grades in between. And in such fine grained world USA is higher (whiter) than Russia, China and Iran, and by a lot.

Now to your direct question - USA did a lot of bad stuff and nobody denies it, they did bad stuff in 20th century and in 21st. But again - in comparison China, Russia and Iran are much worse. We can't deny punishment for a killer because of bad childhood, at best we can find killer's offender and punish him too accordingly. Same with USA - they should be held accountable, but only for their own actions, same as other countries.

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#148
post #101
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might be directly impacted, but in terms of most countries invaded or people killed over the last say 100 years I think the US is rather ahead. Making them a bigger problem for the world even if Russia is a bigger problem for you. Personally as an American I kind of like being part of the ‘evil’ empire. But, I can definitely understand why others might take issue with our actions.

USA killed more people that Russia/USSR over last 100 years? USA annexed more territories than Russia/USSR over last 100 years? Please tell me you are kidding. China is indisputable leader in killing civilians EVER in human history and also quite happy to annex nearby territories. Iran - about the same. If you want to glorify objectively worse entities just for the sake of hating on USA (justified or not) - feel free…

[deleted]

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Iran is still suffering heavily from that coup. That was the closest we ever were to a democracy. However, democracy is very fragile, specially at the beginning. And it was shattered and to this day, we never got as close. Tyrant regimes come and go and we still think what might've been. We could've easily been another France in middle east. Source: Iranian living in the U.S.

As an Iranian living in the US, what's your perspective on the recent claims by US officials: things like Iran attacking civilians in Saudi Arabia and US forces in SA and Iraq, seizing tankers, and supporting militias who were attempting to take over Iraq and killing protestors there? https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/u-s-says-iran-may-have-ki... https://www.nbcnews.com/news/military/u-s-officials-iran-off... https:…

They didn't happen in a vacuum. The U.S. is suffocating Iran. The sanctions doesn't allow anybody in the world to have any commerce with Iran.

I was fully onboard with Obama's sanctions. They had a clear ask: Stop the nuclear development. Everybody understood it and is was clear.

Iran agreed to JCPOA and stopped any nuclear development.

Why is Iran under sanctions now? They have given a list of demands and it's basically a big fuck you to the Islamic Republic that is never going to happen.

If someone tries to suffocate you, you are going to kick back.

I'm not a fan of Islamic Republic. Fuck them. But at least during the Obama administration, the immediate threat (Nuclear development) was stopped and there was a dialogue. The two countries had direct lines of communication and even helped each other out fighting ISIS.

Reformists in Iran gained credibility and power, and slowly Iran could've gotten back to a democratic path.

Now, reformists are cast out and have 0 credibility with people. Hardliners in Iran have power. And they are being suffocated, so they kick back by attacking ships, drones or tankers or arresting innocent people.

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#150
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The last war USA "won" was WWII. For all that we spend on it, and for as many innocents as it destroys, our military cannot accomplish objectives that benefit the national interest. Which isn't surprising, because it has been optimized to waste resources, not to win.

In what way do you consider the gulf war a failure?

Can I assume you're talking about the first one, stumbled into by Bush the Elder? Did we win that? When did we win it? Why didn't the troops come home then?

USA troops stationed in Arabia, as they have been since the beginning of that war, was the reason that ObL did the 9/11 attacks. Those attacks were good for lots of armaments manufacturers, but the were not in the American national interest.

Post reply on HN