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Psilocybin found safe for consumption in largest ever controlled study

independent.co.uk

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Re: Psilocybin found safe for consumption in largest ever controlled study

#141

Post by klyrs »

coffeemug wrote: post #130

Counter-anecdote: I've experimented with this stuff extensively in various settings and have known many other people who did, and in my experience it's unequivocally bullshit. Here's what happens. First, any given trip alleviates depression for about a month or two. That makes sense to me in a sense that the word "trip" isn't a coincidence-- a really fun intense vacation in a foreign country also alleviates depressio…

If your life sucks, depression is a completely reasonable side effect. Clinical depression is a different beast -- even on great days, free of external stressors, you're wont to feel miserable.

Mushrooms won't fix your life. But even your anecdote suggests that they can provide a brief window of clarity. In that window, you can choose to make changes in your life, but making big changes is risky and typically quite difficult. But for folks with clinical depression, these treatments might be a game changer.

Re: Psilocybin found safe for consumption in largest ever controlled study

#143

Post by outime »

coffeemug wrote: post #130

Counter-anecdote: I've experimented with this stuff extensively in various settings and have known many other people who did, and in my experience it's unequivocally bullshit. Here's what happens. First, any given trip alleviates depression for about a month or two. That makes sense to me in a sense that the word "trip" isn't a coincidence-- a really fun intense vacation in a foreign country also alleviates depressio…

>in my experience it's unequivocally bullshit

>[trip compared to] a really fun intense vacation in a foreign country also alleviates depression for a month or two

I think these two are confusing statements if read together. That being said, I think I understand what you mean.

From the info I’ve gathered, almost everybody agrees with you. It’s not a magic cure. Sure, someone might argue it is but you’ll find that person everywhere. But for someone with severe depression who can’t see beyond the wall could be really valuable experience, since otherwise couldn’t go (or even afford) going on a very intense vacation in a foreign country.

Sometimes you may need clarity to deal with the problems that otherwise depression wouldn’t let you (or wouldn’t even let you see them). But I guess (because I haven’t tried this, but read a lot) it’s all about the mindset you approach this.

Re: Psilocybin found safe for consumption in largest ever controlled study

#144

Post by scotty79 »

pmoriarty wrote: post #133
coffeemug wrote: post #130

Counter-anecdote: I've experimented with this stuff extensively in various settings and have known many other people who did, and in my experience it's unequivocally bullshit. Here's what happens. First, any given trip alleviates depression for about a month or two. That makes sense to me in a sense that the word "trip" isn't a coincidence-- a really fun intense vacation in a foreign country also alleviates depressio…

Counter-counter anecdote: I was just listening to an interview[1] with Dennis McKenna[2] (brother of Terence McKenna[3]) in which he said: "If I'm going to take it [a psychedelic substance] I'm going to pay attention to it. It's sort of like you have an opportunity to sit with someone who's very wise and they have stuff to tell you and so they deserve that respect. That's what's changed. I give it my respect. "And so…

Sounds exactly like running in circles...

Re: Psilocybin found safe for consumption in largest ever controlled study

#145

Post by scotty79 »

coffeemug wrote: post #130

Counter-anecdote: I've experimented with this stuff extensively in various settings and have known many other people who did, and in my experience it's unequivocally bullshit. Here's what happens. First, any given trip alleviates depression for about a month or two. That makes sense to me in a sense that the word "trip" isn't a coincidence-- a really fun intense vacation in a foreign country also alleviates depressio…

> First, any given trip alleviates depression for about a month or two.

That's why they are trying to turn it into therapy instead of advising sick people to experiment wildly.

They know there's an effect, now they know it's safe. What's left to establish is what's the most efficient protocol for using it.

Re: Psilocybin found safe for consumption in largest ever controlled study

#146

Post by [deleted] »

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #64
ergothus wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've always been on the skeptical side of medical marijuana usage in all but the most extreme cases, Really? I've always found the milder claims fairly believable (fighting nausea or chronic low level pain relief). As an anecdote, I can attest to dealing with kidney stone pain well (rather than stopping the pain it reduced how much I noticed it) and it ended up more effective and felt less dangerous than the opiods…

For myself cannabis literally has the opposite effects -- increases inflammation and pain (I have chronic back pain). So I think it's right to be skeptical because the compounds themselves have extremely variable results.

[deleted]

Re: Psilocybin found safe for consumption in largest ever controlled study

#147

Post by shlant »

pmoriarty wrote: post #133
coffeemug wrote: post #130

Counter-anecdote: I've experimented with this stuff extensively in various settings and have known many other people who did, and in my experience it's unequivocally bullshit. Here's what happens. First, any given trip alleviates depression for about a month or two. That makes sense to me in a sense that the word "trip" isn't a coincidence-- a really fun intense vacation in a foreign country also alleviates depressio…

Counter-counter anecdote: I was just listening to an interview[1] with Dennis McKenna[2] (brother of Terence McKenna[3]) in which he said: "If I'm going to take it [a psychedelic substance] I'm going to pay attention to it. It's sort of like you have an opportunity to sit with someone who's very wise and they have stuff to tell you and so they deserve that respect. That's what's changed. I give it my respect. "And so…

I think referencing the leaders of the psychedelic movement would be a pretty biased argument for psychedelic use. Survivorship bias would also be a factor.

I want to echo the sentiment of the OP - I have yet to meet someone who does not go down one of the two paths described. Either they continue to do various psychedelic substances over the years claiming to have solved all their problems while a cursory examination shows their lives continue to be a mess.... or they stop looking at it as a panacea and start making meaningful changes in their lives that actually have a long-term positive impact (this is my own experience).

I don't have a problem with using psychedelics IN A RESPONSIBLE WAY for short term relief from symptoms of a greater issue that actually requires concrete, meaningful action to address. Maybe the relief, from depression for example, is enough to find the motivation to take those actions. HOWEVER - most people tend to be very black and white in their thinking and don't see it as treating a symptom - they see it as a solution to all their problems. You see it over and over again with various approaches - fasting, keto and psychedelics being the current fads.

There is no panacea for living a healthy, fulfilling life. It takes conscious, persistent shifts on many different levels. There is no cure-all. There never has been, and never will be.

Re: Psilocybin found safe for consumption in largest ever controlled study

#148

Post by chronofar »

coffeemug wrote: post #130

Counter-anecdote: I've experimented with this stuff extensively in various settings and have known many other people who did, and in my experience it's unequivocally bullshit. Here's what happens. First, any given trip alleviates depression for about a month or two. That makes sense to me in a sense that the word "trip" isn't a coincidence-- a really fun intense vacation in a foreign country also alleviates depressio…

First of all, there is a wide delta of difference between taking these substances recreationally and in a clinical setting. Any clinician involved with these trials is not going to equivocate their use in treating depression with your weekend in the woods with your friends.

Second if we are talking recreationally I have met many, many people on a third path there: the understanding that psychedelics offer a beautiful alternate window with which to perceive things and they can tend to have a heightened awareness and appreciation while otherwise being just like many in that they answer slack messages or [insert mundane work task here].

Thirdly the mind in question is more important than psychedelics or slack messages. One can view either as a hellish prison or a wonderful gift, and in either case this perspective is likely to prove itself out. There is no magic cure to gift inner peace, nor is inner peace at all waking hours a realistic or worthwhile goal for anyone. This does not make psychedelics "bullshit," it means you need more to cultivate a rich inner life than a few altered state experiences. This should not be surprising (though to be sure it is quite often).

Fourthly, when you say:

> Most people realize that their psychonautic journey is at best leading them in circles, and at worst is causing their life to spiral down the drain. So they give it up, get a job without 9pm slack messages (or find a better way to adjust to stress), marry someone who isn't constantly on the verge of cheating, start doing regular exercise, and generally find a way to settle into a reasonably balanced life.

Have you asked these people how they came to their better life there, their job without a 9pm slack message, their healthy marriage, healthy lifestyle, etc? Many would likely attribute at least part of this found balance to their experience with psychedelics. Many people in these trials, a majority in fact, count these experiences among their top 5 most profound life experiences. That's astounding, and anecdotally I've met many more who fit that bill, and of course there are other famous cases who parrot this like Steve Jobs. Psychedelics are not an answer, but they often do illuminate where paths were previously hidden.

I believe your cynicism has sliced off only a portion of the truth here and tilted focus in the wrong directions.

Re: Psilocybin found safe for consumption in largest ever controlled study

#149

Post by orasis »

coffeemug wrote: post #130

Counter-anecdote: I've experimented with this stuff extensively in various settings and have known many other people who did, and in my experience it's unequivocally bullshit. Here's what happens. First, any given trip alleviates depression for about a month or two. That makes sense to me in a sense that the word "trip" isn't a coincidence-- a really fun intense vacation in a foreign country also alleviates depressio…

Every tool has it’s appropriate use - there is a middle way.

I sleep well, eat well, exercise, occasionally micro-dose, and if my brain gets in a really bad place I’ll do a huge reset trip. I’ve been doing this for 10 years and I’m the happiest I’ve ever been.

Temet Nosce - Know Thyself

Re: Psilocybin found safe for consumption in largest ever controlled study

#150

Post by shlant »

chronofar wrote: post #148
coffeemug wrote: post #130

Counter-anecdote: I've experimented with this stuff extensively in various settings and have known many other people who did, and in my experience it's unequivocally bullshit. Here's what happens. First, any given trip alleviates depression for about a month or two. That makes sense to me in a sense that the word "trip" isn't a coincidence-- a really fun intense vacation in a foreign country also alleviates depressio…

First of all, there is a wide delta of difference between taking these substances recreationally and in a clinical setting. Any clinician involved with these trials is not going to equivocate their use in treating depression with your weekend in the woods with your friends. Second if we are talking recreationally I have met many, many people on a third path there: the understanding that psychedelics offer a beautiful…

> "I believe your cynicism has sliced off only a portion of the truth here and tilted focus in the wrong directions."

I think his cynicism is completely warranted considering how many people are starting to view psychedelics as a panacea.

Do psychedelics offer an experience that could be part of, or even a spark a greater shift? Sure.

Could psychedelics provide temporary relief from things like depression and anxiety? Sure.

Do most people approach things that are talked about as a solution to life's most difficult problems in a moderate way? Very rarely.

Are there VERY REAL and SIGNIFICANT downsides to the misuse of psychedelics? Absolutely. Bad trips are very real and with real, long-term consequences.

From my experience with these substances and from my observations of many people who have also used them, I think we should approach the subject from a cautious point of view at the very least. We can throw around studies all we want, but as you pointed out, these are almost all done in a CLINICAL SETTING which is probably the most relevant aspect to the outcome of psychedelic experiences.

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