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Colleges are turning students’ phones into surveillance machines

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141–150 of 293 posts

Re: Colleges are turning students’ phones into surveillance machines

#141

Speaking from the Devil's Advocate side, as I work in Higher Education analytics: First: this data is, by the vast majority of institutions, used very respectfully in terms of privacy rights and it is ABSOLUTELY never sold. Third part vendors that provide hosted systems are REQUIRED to affirm that they pass nothing on to any other party whatsoever. (I should note that this is the case in public and traditional privat…

Thanks for the respectful and nuanced take. I am somewhat concerned with where this stuff leads, not because I assume it's a one step process between education analytics and oppressive dystopia, but precisely because the use cases you describe seem like great ideas. I agree that minimizing drop-out rates is important, and that we should avail ourselves of whatever tools we can to do it. What you're describing does no…

You're absolutely right, data could be used for these other things that, while potentially beneficial to society and individuals, carry further potential for misuse as well.

To address misuse in general: That is always a problem, with any technology, tool, data... anything. It's important that we don't discard useful tools due to potential misuse though. Instead, it's of the utmost importance that, at the outset, issues of misuse be enumerated, discussed, mitigation strategies thought out, how to accurately talk about data gathered, the insights obtained, what they can and cannot be used for from a statistical analysis (correlation != causation etc. type of thing) and so on. Let me talk a little about what we did at my institution along these lines. It wasn't perfect, we could have done better, but in the outlines I think it formed a pretty good starting place for a template of how society should engage in conversations about issues that arise from the current revolution in our ability to gather data on individuals:

In 2014 we started using an LMS system that made data collection on easy. I was given sole access to that data to begin exploring and cataloging the available data being collected, it's possible uses, potential points of concern. I had sole access, but those things I was looking for were done in intense conversation with administrative and faculty colleagues, including the university executive board and the faculty union and faculty senate along with conversations with students. During this process, no else had the level of unfettered access that I did (I am a data analyst) not even the system administrators. (Technically they could have granted themselves access though, but if they didn't go through the proper channels, such a thing is a firing offense.)

This went on for about three years, all the while I was able to accumulate data and evaluate it against actual student performance and validate its utility and continue to report back on my findings to further the discussions going on. When that stage of actually using the data to drive conversations ended, I took a step back and simply spoke at gatherings every once in a while to go over what I'd done, findings, etc. After that, for the next two years, it was in the hands of the administration working up policies in conversation with faculty surrounding expectations for responsible use of this information. To say there were disagreements would be an understatement. But over time tentative points of compromise were reached, and for the past 2 years were have begun carefully rolling out initiatives that utilize all of this. We are cautious. We are open. We continue to have conversations with valid concerns on all sides that we seek good compromises for.

Again, the above wasn't perfect, but it's a good outline of how responsible use of data should be approached.

Re: Colleges are turning students’ phones into surveillance machines

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My interactions with British professors are not in any way comparable to what I know about the US police! It's a really weird comparison to me. Perhaps US profs are way more uptight in general? I'm not really sure how to respond to that, to be honest.

Discretion works great for the privileged portion of the population.

You'll have to explain again how bad behaviour by US police generalises to professors.

As far as I can tell this is simply a strawman. And even if it's not - the solution is to replace dickhead staff with reasonable human beings, not chain them with process so that everyone suffers.

Re: Colleges are turning students’ phones into surveillance machines

#144
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I attended a private high school that gave us a remarkable degree of freedom at a young age. We were allowed to drive off campus as upper classmen, choose a wide range of electives, and generally were treated as the near-adults we were. Recently I read that my high school is instituting a random drug testing policy. I wrote a letter (that I'm sure they promptly ignored) saying how the thing I most remember about my h…

I feel like in the case of schools, there legal risks they have to face that cause this. If something happens to a student while that student is in your care, you get the blame. If the school restricts freedoms they're simply reducing their legal risk. It's a shame. I agree with you that giving students more and more freedom as they grow is tremendously helpful to their ability to adapt and be responsible by the time…

Is the legal risk different now from back then? If so then maybe those legal decisions weren't great. Maybe they were. But at least worth revaluation.

Re: Colleges are turning students’ phones into surveillance machines

#145

> logging their absence into a campus database that tracks them over time and can sink their grade. Fortunately, I attended a college (Caltech) that as institute policy did not take attendance and no part of the grade was based on attendance. The result was nobody was disruptive in class, because if students didn't want to attend, they didn't attend. I remember sitting in class as a freshman thinking about this and e…

The proliferation of data platforms and fancy tools makes it easy to build dashboards, etc. One former colleague is doing a lot of research and statistics gathering by correlating use of campus swipe cards to grades and other academic warning signs. If they detect that you’re out late, using soda machines at 3am, bugging out for the weekend, etc they may trigger some of sort intervention.

An intervention for staying up late and leaving on the weekend? Is this a college or a daycare?

Re: Colleges are turning students’ phones into surveillance machines

#146

> logging their absence into a campus database that tracks them over time and can sink their grade. Fortunately, I attended a college (Caltech) that as institute policy did not take attendance and no part of the grade was based on attendance. The result was nobody was disruptive in class, because if students didn't want to attend, they didn't attend. I remember sitting in class as a freshman thinking about this and e…

But that's CalTech.

Re: Colleges are turning students’ phones into surveillance machines

#147
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Slippage is never pointless but rather an important aspect for any efficient system. If you are setting the deadline at midnight instead of 4pm then you are making most of the students work longer on the assignment. Set the hard deadline to 4pm and then allow a few students to submit late. That ends up being less of a burden on students and society.

That’s not any different. Now how late are you allowed to submit? 5 PM? Sometime at night? Midnight? How many people are allowed to submit late? What if word gets out that everybody is allowed to? You get the exact same problem, except that more of the professor and TA’s time is wasted, and the whole process now has favoritism baked in. I have seen deadlines wrap all the way around a 24 hour cycle in this way. 5 PM i…

It is different. By setting a deadline at midnight, you’re setting a tone that work is expected to happen then.

In my undergraduate education, toxic behavior like this was common. One professor who was a particular asshole deliberately assigned onerous assignments to coincide with an assignment for another critical, difficult class that 75% of the students were taking. Academic hazing was pretty common in CS.

Re: Colleges are turning students’ phones into surveillance machines

#148
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been an instructor for CS courses before so I know what you mean. I never made deadlines anything but absolutely final, which is appropriately not unlike a lot of other things in life --- from what I've heard from others, any leniency just tends to cause more whining. Someone who waits until the last second to do something is not going to do any better if given a tiny bit more time (nevermind the question of how…

How about having the student’s score decay as some function of how late they turn it in? If they turn it in before the deadline, they get 100% of their marked grade, if it’s an hour late 90%, a day late 50%, etc (use whatever function you want)

One of my professors at UCLA has a very lenient policy - you lose 2^(n-1) points, where n is the number of days after the deadline you've submitted. This meant that turning in your assignment one or two days late was no big deal, but turning it in four or five days late would be pretty bad.

Re: Colleges are turning students’ phones into surveillance machines

#149
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I teach in political science and I require regular attendance as part of one's grade. Miss more than a few classes absent a compelling excuse and you are docked a half letter grade. Why? My classes are typically small, under 15 students, and are heavily discussion dependent. Engendering open discussion between students, as opposed to top-down lecturing, has resulted in keeping students engaged and actively learning i…

> Miss more than a few classes absent a compelling excuse and you are docked a half letter grade. Why not give a half letter grade boost to those with good attendance rather than docking a half letter grade to someone who misses a few classes? Why not incentivize with a reward rather than a penalty? The carrot rather than the stick? > However, the students have the opportunity to review the syllabus in advance and th…

If the class is easy, then the half letter grade won't matter much and nearly everyone will get high scores, rendering attendance useless. If the class is curved, then boosting those that attend is functionally the same as penalizing those that do not.

Re: Colleges are turning students’ phones into surveillance machines

#150
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For example, my assignments are now largely due at midnight, at a very particular second: submit a nanosecond late at your own penalty. From the instructor's point of view, there's no winning here -- there will always be a cutoff, and any position of it will lead to complaints. Even for an informal system, there's always a last person allowed in, and hence a cutoff. If you have a good reason for an extension, you c…

I've been an instructor for CS courses before so I know what you mean. I never made deadlines anything but absolutely final, which is appropriately not unlike a lot of other things in life --- from what I've heard from others, any leniency just tends to cause more whining. Someone who waits until the last second to do something is not going to do any better if given a tiny bit more time (nevermind the question of how…

Students are going to complain regardless. I had soft deadlines when I graded. Assignments were due at midnight but I told them as long as it was in by the time I pulled their repos (I'd do it first thing in the morning) I wouldn't dock them. A few times I had students complain. I clearly told them that I was already giving them leniency and if they want to attempt to take advantage of my niceness that I'd remove it for everyone. Those students only tried once and it didn't happen often. Students need to learn personal responsibility or they won't have them by the time they enter the work place or grad school. Also if you don't show them humanity then they won't learn this and we slowly lose it in our society.

Though I ended up with weird reviews. I got just as many students saying I was their best teacher as those saying worst teacher. I also had a surprising number of students try to turn into me the skeleton code I provided them claiming they did the assignment (they'd add like a line or two). Also had students say I was unavailable even though I lived in my office with my door open (students frequently came by outside office hours) and replied to emails between 9am and 1am. Learned that the complaints don't always match what you're doing and are hard to interpret.

Tldr: students will complain no matter what. Just be human. It's easier and less stressful for everyone involved.

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