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Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

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Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#141

Post by ticmasta »

solidasparagus wrote: post #120
FussyZeus wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> unless the buyers choose to stop using the minerals altogether. BINGO. That's what you do. If the ass end of Mogadishu can't provide the minerals without using exploitative labor practices, THEN DON'T BUY FROM THE ASS END OF MOGADISHU. And if that means an iPhone costs $200 more then that's what it fucking means, because no iPhone is worth it's weight in human suffering to have.

This is one of those feel-good solutions that lets us feel superior but doesn't actually help the people suffering. Demand is not going anywhere. You're also insultingly wrong with your geography.

I appreciate your measured and informative responses that are not pure opinion but everyone else in the thread is adding nothing but gut-impulse emotional opinions. Cut your losses.

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#142

Post by jacquesm »

neuroticfish wrote: post #124
FussyZeus wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They know enough to get the damn cobalt. They can know more if they want to, or, more likely, not do business with the sort of shady ass organizations who use child labor specifically because they can't get the documentation. I really don't understand this "that's just the way it is" thinking when it comes to corporations doing shady shit overseas. If I went to my DMV and I said "I need to register this car" and had…

>Yet, somehow, a multiBILLION dollar company can just buy material from warlords or whatever tribe in remote parts of China, and ship MILLIONS OF POUNDS of it out of that region, but nobody can get a fucking receipt? What normally happens in this process is that the selling country's government official who is tasked with verifying the integrity of the receipt is bribed with a month or more salary to sign the exchang…

Wasn't bribery illegal?

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#143

Post by pnako »

soared wrote: post #136
pnako wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could ban/sanction Congolese cobalt; this would increase prices in the short run, while other producing countries adjust supply.

Adjusting the supply of cobalt in a country isn't something thats easily adjusted.

Why not? If half of the supply disappears overnight, prices will go through the roof, providing an incentive for current producers to increase output, by increasing effort in their existing mining operations, and more than likely by opening new operations.

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#144

Post by solidasparagus »

yters wrote: post #133
solidasparagus wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of those feel-good solutions that lets us feel superior but doesn't actually help the people suffering. Demand is not going anywhere. You're also insultingly wrong with your geography.

The 'someone will do it anyway' defense is not morally legitimate. Just because everyone else is doing it, does not make the action ok. Luke 17:1 Jesus said to his disciples: "Things that cause people to stumble are bound to come, but woe to anyone through whom they come."

I'm not interested in sounding morally superior, I'm interested in actually helping people who need help. And if you want to do that, you need to accept that 'stop buying cobalt' is not currently a solution that has any chance of improving the state of things.

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#145

Post by lotsofpulp »

adaml_623 wrote: post #107
manigandham wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Places where rule of the land (or lack thereof) already lets this happen is unlikely to change simply from increased margins. Most likely they’ll just pocket the increased profit with no improvement in conditions.

Responsible businesses do full inspections of their supply chains. All the way back to the farms which grow the food.

How about the factories where the fertilizer and pesticide/insecticide is made?

My point is it is unreasonable to expect a business to be able to do the kind of oversight that would require the reach of government agencies.

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#146

Post by ticmasta »

yibg wrote: post #53
celticmusic wrote: post #31

Then the law needs to change. It's unconscionable for this to be happening. You make the buyers of that cobalt start caring, you'll make the producers of that cobalt start caring.

Why stop at the direct buyer then? Why not make the end consumer liable too? Make them care, you make the buyers of that cobalt start caring even more right? Heck why don’t we just extend liability down to the end of the chain for everything?

And to drive home the challenge of how hard it is to trace the providence of a manufactured device, make the end consumer pay restitution directly to the affected parties.

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#147

Post by xxs »

baybal2 wrote: post #4

Cobalt and tantalum are truly the Achilles heel of industrial economies. No cobalt - no lithium batteries, and no mobile gadgets No tantalum - no high spec capacitors omnipresent in compact power supplies, thus again no high value electronics as such unless you want to put huge electrolytic caps into your smartphone.

yeah - agree... and look at the tools industry where most hand-held tools are battery powered nowadays (incl. angle grinders)

Most people are willing to close their eyes as the issue is far away from home

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#148

Post by Spooky23 »

FussyZeus wrote: post #113
naravara wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>They can know more if they want to Sure they could. They would basically need to set up a modern version of the East India Trading Company, build themselves a mercenary army, and go in there and set up a proxy government that adheres to whatever regulatory policies they want to define. We called that "colonialism" the last time around though, and most of the countries it happened to were not fans.

False dichotomy. Or Strawman. Both apply.

I don't think that it is.

If you look at what the PRC is doing to establish footholds and reliable supply chains, it bears a strong resemblance to those old trading companies. The US does various "counter-terrorism" operations in different countries, essentially borrowing African military units.

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#150

Post by ticmasta »

mbostleman wrote: post #67
yibg wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why stop at the direct buyer then? Why not make the end consumer liable too? Make them care, you make the buyers of that cobalt start caring even more right? Heck why don’t we just extend liability down to the end of the chain for everything?

I'm not convinced that punishing the end consumer would be all that bad. Maybe it would generate actual participation in the market and send a message that they're the ones that fuel it.

You can agree or disagree with how effective this would be, but it's essentially the same argument for carbon taxes on consumers and the indirect tax applied via producers: you participate in production of the negative components, you help pay the cost.

Again, not arguing for or against but what's so different about taxing consumers on behalf of actual people in a different country vs. taxing them on behalf of the environment?

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