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Indiana man charged with theft for removing police tracking device from car

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Indiana man charged with theft for removing police tracking device from car

#141

Post by Nasrudith »

chrismcb wrote: post #116
huffmsa wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Had he been made aware of the tracking device, like one is with an ankle monitoring bracelet, then sure, removal is cause for an arrest on theft, destruction of property, etc. However, since he was not made aware of the device, he has no obligation to be compliant. If the police were tapping someone's phone and they threw away the phone, for whatever reason, would they be in a similar situation? If they avoided a hum…

They claim that a police tracker is obviously different than a civilian one. Didn't say how. But if it becomes illegal to remove a police tracker, how soon before the civilian ones resemble the police ones?

Yeah - assuming there is any difference is frankly highly ignorant of industrialization and supply chains. Manufacturers are highly encouraged to go general purpose with everything unless it is restricted. That is how economies of scale work essentially.

A given model say a M1911 Pistol may still be in use by the military but it has been a civilian item for over a century at this point. Barring say labeling like serial numbers and look ups or red handed catching of thieves there is no reasonable way to say if a given specimen in a pawn shop is stolen. A predator drone however is clearly military only for now and a pawn shop dealing with it is obviously selling stolen goods illegally. (After all civilians manufactured them in the first place.)

Re: Indiana man charged with theft for removing police tracking device from car

#142

Post by valley-green »

WalterBright wrote: post #41

If someone drops something in my car, and I unwittingly drive off with it, it is still not mine. But I did not steal it. If the person asks for it back, and I refuse, then I am stealing it. All the police had to do was knock on his door and ask for it back. If he refused, that's grounds for theft. If he denied knowledge of it (like if it had just fallen off somewhere) that doesn't sound like sufficient grounds for a…

Exactly. If you’re breaking the law the police have no right to stop you. Only if you’re dumb enough to do it in plain sight.

Re: Indiana man charged with theft for removing police tracking device from car

#143

Post by alasdair_ »

WalterBright wrote: post #41

If someone drops something in my car, and I unwittingly drive off with it, it is still not mine. But I did not steal it. If the person asks for it back, and I refuse, then I am stealing it. All the police had to do was knock on his door and ask for it back. If he refused, that's grounds for theft. If he denied knowledge of it (like if it had just fallen off somewhere) that doesn't sound like sufficient grounds for a…

The battery in these units is often hooked to the car battery to keep it charged.

Theft of electricity is a crime. Indeed, before explicit computer intrusion laws, hackers used to be prosecuted for the theft of a few cents of electricity involved in the computation of their “crime”.

Re: Indiana man charged with theft for removing police tracking device from car

#144

Post by Frondo »

DagAgren wrote: post #100
freeopinion wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd settle for experimenting with "same". If a regular citizen can't plant a bug, neither can police. If police can conduct a stakeout, so can regular citizens. They just have to follow the same process. That might include going in front of a judge and getting a warrant. If a regular citizen could break up a bar fight, the police should be able to take the same actions. If police can set up a sting operation, so shou…

So which do you think makes more sense: Police are not allowed to arrest people, or everyone is allowed to arrest?

Former private security guard here: in our training, we were told that we, as private citizens, could "arrest" someone, if you're willing to sign your name to an arrest warrant. You'd want to have the cops on the way, and be willing to face a false arrest lawsuit for detaining them, so you'd better be really 100% sure you caught them in the act of doing something illegal.

We were also taught it's almost never worth doing this; basically, if someone's shooting people and you're doing an armed job, yes, use your gun to try and stop them or detain them, but if it's just property damage or theft, call the cops and let them do their thing. The risk to you isn't worth it, nor is the risk of a false arrest lawsuit.

Re: Indiana man charged with theft for removing police tracking device from car

#145

Post by Nasrudith »

MaxfordAndSons wrote: post #103
ralfd wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However you may feel about the theft charge, if you find a tracker on your car, don't take it off. Yes, but ... > It's an occasion to call the police. If you are a drug dealer it is an occasion to hide your supply extra hard. And use a second car/taxi for your drug dealing while using the compromised car for perfectly legal things like an upstanding citizen.

> And use a second car/taxi for your drug dealing If you are a drug dealer and find a police tracker on your car, it's time to stop being a drug dealer.

If part of an organized ring I wonder how well acting as a dedicated decoy would pay off strategically.

Deliberately "cry wolf" with legitimate but shady looking shipments while other members carry out business. Of course that would make them and the organization lose their illegitimate income and the police likely outnumber them in particular even if there may be more smugglers total.

Of course long term thinking and crime for profit don't usually go together - quick gains and jackpots are the temptations in the first place.

Re: Indiana man charged with theft for removing police tracking device from car

#146

Post by imtringued »

tehwebguy wrote: post #113
Aloha wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not by intention however, but I'd mostly agree they do in practice.

It is entirely intentional.

Where is this intention written down? Can you show me the relevant law?

Re: Indiana man charged with theft for removing police tracking device from car

#147

Post by tw04 »

WalterBright wrote: post #41

If someone drops something in my car, and I unwittingly drive off with it, it is still not mine. But I did not steal it. If the person asks for it back, and I refuse, then I am stealing it. All the police had to do was knock on his door and ask for it back. If he refused, that's grounds for theft. If he denied knowledge of it (like if it had just fallen off somewhere) that doesn't sound like sufficient grounds for a…

So if I put a bumper sticker on your car and walk away, then come back 3 months later and ask for it back and you refuse, then that's stealing? Really?

Because I'd say me putting something on your private property is vandalism. And you removing said vandalism is in no way a crime. They didn't have a warrant, and their device wasn't identified as belonging to the authorities. Just because the police vandalized your property (without informing you about what they were doing) shouldn't* make it any more of a crime to remove than if a private citizen did it. This is the same bullshit that empowers police to harass minorities "because we're cops".

Re: Indiana man charged with theft for removing police tracking device from car

#148

Post by Nasrudith »

manigandham wrote: post #99
tsimionescu wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't say that media and public shame are worse than the abuses of the criminal justice system. Your life may get turned upside down if you are simply accused of some crimes (especially sexual crimes), but you may very well bounce back. Getting rightly accused of possession of light drugs and ending up in prison is a much worse outcome, and it happens to many, many times more people. And unlike the celebrities th…

How is actually committing a crime and going to prison somehow worse than being wrongfully accused and affected for life?

Impacts on life from prison that are independent of guilt or innocence? Now it may make them more /deserving/ but it would be worse for the guilty party.

Granted it may be better for society (may because nothing stops the law from being messed up) so the question is worse for who?

Re: Indiana man charged with theft for removing police tracking device from car

#149

Post by tehwebguy »

imtringued wrote: post #146
tehwebguy wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is entirely intentional.

Where is this intention written down? Can you show me the relevant law?

Qualified immunity laws and case law is what you are looking for.

Re: Indiana man charged with theft for removing police tracking device from car

#150

Post by hanniabu »

WalterBright wrote: post #41

If someone drops something in my car, and I unwittingly drive off with it, it is still not mine. But I did not steal it. If the person asks for it back, and I refuse, then I am stealing it. All the police had to do was knock on his door and ask for it back. If he refused, that's grounds for theft. If he denied knowledge of it (like if it had just fallen off somewhere) that doesn't sound like sufficient grounds for a…

This sets a precedent for anybody that follows and tells them that if they want to arrest somebody they just need to put a tracker in a place they will find it so they can arrest them for theft afterwards.
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